Lionair 610 crash

[AviatorInsight]

The pilot in question was trained in USA

I don’t think that means anything. We’ve had several newcomers do their endorsements in the US and they were less than impressed with the level of training.

A company’s safety culture will most certainly rub off on the best of pilots after a while if their check and training isn’t up to scratch or there is a breakdown in SOP etc.

 

[jb747]

The pilot in question was trained in USA

That doesn't really mean much. There are schools and schools.

 

[Ansett]

So it seems poor maintenance and possible pilot training issues may be the main cause of this terrible loss of life.

http://atwonline.com/safety/prelimi...m=email&elq2=4c3af3df62c4439b8226ac94d4b76318

 

[theblank]

I don’t think that means anything.

it most certainly means that the pilot was not trained in Indonesia.

 

[theblank]

So it seems poor maintenance and possible pilot training issues may be the main cause of this terrible loss of life.

http://atwonline.com/safety/prelimi...m=email&elq2=4c3af3df62c4439b8226ac94d4b76318

they seem to be making up conclusions in this article. First they said

A preliminary report on the Oct. 29 crash of Lion Air flight 610 (JT610) confirms the accident aircraft, a Boeing 737 MAX 8, was not airworthy on at least its last two flights, spotlighting gaps in the airline’s maintenance practices and safety culture.

then there is

The NTSC report, a factual update at the probe’s one-month mark that includes little analysis and no conclusions

It really annoys me when the media makes their own conclusions and then write it up in a way that makes it seem its not their own (whether they are right or wrong)

 

[AviatorInsight]

it most certainly means that the pilot was not trained in Indonesia.

Right, so was he being trained by in his last cyclic?

 

[MEL_Traveller]

FWIW: Lion Air and its pilots were aware of new 737 flight system - Airline Ratings

 

[Deleted member 29185]

FWIW: Lion Air and its pilots were aware of new 737 flight system - Airline Ratings

I'm unsure about these claims. I hate 3rd parties jumping onto a media bandwagon and claiming intimate knowledge on what someone did or did not know when those people are dead and can no longer defend themselves. Clearly, they didn't know. I don't think there has been even a slight hint of a suicidal radical flight crew, so presumably, if they did know, they would have done it.

He also seems too quick to divert all blame from Boeing and his description of the function as being "incidental" is not only an inappropriate comment in the face of 180+ deaths (which are still being investigated), but also seems to go against what some other senior (and experienced) players have stated. Describing the "downward force" as "just a little more" but then suggesting the pilots were "battling" it, says to me he doesn't mind contradicting himself. If the force was just a little more, than the pilots would not need to battle it. It seems probable to me, that Boeings risk assessments and FMEAs were fundamentally flawed. Sure, by all means address pilot error and/or airline error but one could be forgiven for thinking this "expert" has a poor ability to think laterally, which always leaves me pondering the motives for such a media blurb.

 

[jb747]

MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System) is implemented on the 737 MAX to enhance pitch characteristics with flaps UP and at elevated angles of attack. The MCAS function commands nose down stabilizer to enhance pitch characteristics during steep turns with elevated load factors and during flaps up flight at airspeeds approaching stall. MCAS is activated without pilot input and only operates in manual, flaps up flight. The system is designed to allow the flight crew to use column trim switch or stabilizer aislestand cutout switches to override MCAS input. The function is commanded by the Flight Control computer using input data from sensors and other airplane systems.

The MCAS function becomes active when the airplane Angle of Attack exceeds a threshold based on airspeed and altitude. Stabilizer incremental commands are limited to 2.5 degrees and are provided at a rate of 0.27 degrees per second. The magnitude of the stabilizer input is lower at high Mach number and greater at low Mach numbers. The function is reset once angle of attack falls below the Angle of Attack threshold or if manual stabilizer commands are provided by the flight crew. If the original elevated AOA condition persists, the MCAS function commands another incremental stabilizer nose down command according to current aircraft Mach number at actuation.

And that would appear to be all the manual has to say.

A little bit of stab...but we now know that it can actually apply all of it. You WILL NOT be able to overpower the stab with the elevator.

Did they get it wrong? Yes, I think they did. But I also think they were handed a bag of poo, by the previous crew, their own maintenance, and Boeing.

 

[Quickstatus]

The poo hit the fan and it’s sticking to LionAir, LionAir maintenance, Boeing and Accident Pilots. It missed the pilots who turned off auto Stab trim. Should the previous pilots have made a stronger case for the grounding of that aircraft?

Sad state of affairs.

 

[juddles]

"The magnitude of the stabilizer input is lower at high Mach number and greater at low Mach numbers."...

This what I was getting at from the start - I suspect the computer was using erroneous airspeed data, and making stabilizer inputs assuming a much lower than real airspeed. This would be hard on the pilot and the airframe.

 

[jb747]

It may have been Juddles, but as far as we know it was the AoA that was wrong, not the speed. In any event, if it used less trim, that would have been better. Whatever was being targeted though, it used sufficient trim to ensure that the elevators could not correct what it had done. Not nice.

 

[oz_mark]

How many AOA sensors does a 737 have, and were the all identically wrong?
Surely if they disagree with each other, the auto stuff should just get out of the way?

 

[Quickstatus]

How many AOA sensors does a 737 have, and were the all identically wrong?
Surely if they disagree with each other, the auto stuff should just get out of the way?

One for left side one for right side.
Left side AoA read higher than right side
737Max and NG display messages only when there is disagreement. Otherwise I believe AoA is a not displayed
WN is modifying the displays to continually display AoA info.

 

[Deleted member 29185]

How many AOA sensors does a 737 have, and were the all identically wrong?
Surely if they disagree with each other, the auto stuff should just get out of the way?

This is a big failure of the FMEA IMHO. I think it was @jb747 who stated a pilot can work out which is the faulty reading, so therefore so can a program. Why didn't it?? Seems a fundamental given just two sensors aboard. To program an aircraft to push itself into a potentially destructive dive when the two sensors are feeding back differing readings is just mind blowing.

 

[theblank]

I'm unsure about these claims. I hate 3rd parties jumping onto a media bandwagon and claiming intimate knowledge on what someone did or did not know when those people are dead and can no longer defend themselves.

Agree, there is far too many in the media (and social media) rehashing older stories and adding in their personal opinons. Then that story gets recirculated and so on.

Its getting very hard to disseminate what is new, and what is fact.

 

[Quickstatus]

BREAKING: Lion Air JT610 coughpit voice recorder and more passenger remains found

 

[juddles]

I suspect, if the contents ever become public, they will be deeply upsetting. To hear what I suspect it will be, pilots fighting a battle they do not know how to win, will be painful.

 

[BAM1748]

I suspect, if the contents ever become public, they will be deeply upsetting. To hear what I suspect it will be, pilots fighting a battle they do not know how to win, will be painful.

A polite way of saying they didn't know what was going on. The AF mid Atlantic accident springs to mind.

 

[juddles]

A polite way of saying they didn't know what was going on. The AF mid Atlantic accident springs to mind.

Although not as expert as many others on here, I feel that Lion Air is a completely different kettle of fish. The AF disaster appears to me to be a case of a pilot making very bad decisions, despite his training. Lion Air appears to me to be a case of the pilot simply never having been trained or made aware of some lethal quirks the plane had inbuilt.