Lionair 610 crash

[trippin_the_rift]

The statements from Boeing and Southwest scare the heck out of me. A built-in auto-crash feature live on over 200 aircraft. Why are these planes not grounded?

I've never had a self-imposed ban on aircraft before, but now I do - If it's Boeing (737MAX), I ain't going.

 

[Deleted member 29185]

I've never had a self-imposed ban on aircraft before, but now I do - If it's Boeing (737MAX), I ain't going.

So how ttr? How do we know whether an airline will place a Max on a route? When we turn up to fly, it's too late to make changes.

 

[OATEK]

So how ttr? How do we know whether an airline will place a Max on a route? When we turn up to fly, it's too late to make changes.

That's where EF comes in handy.

 

[Daver6]

I wasn't really understanding all this MCAS stuff etc. This video explained it simply in context for me.

 

[RooFlyer]

Good stuff, thanks. Dog nearly sole the show.

 

[juddles]

Maybe a bit left-field, but today I "suffered" an experience that perhaps gives me some further insight to this crash.

I arrived back in Australia last week - and got a rental car as I always do. I had it for 5 days before changing this morning to another one (a "getting-the-best-deal" thing)

I have rented/driven many dozens of car types over the years - autos and manuals, small/big, left or right hand drives. I have a lot of experience driving, but am not a "car person". The first car this visit was a Commodore SV6. Drove it around until yesterday - did quite a few hundred kilometres, including highways. All good - a great car.

Then this morning I picked up my next one - again it was a "Commodore". But it wasn't. It was one of those new things they brand as a Commodore but is whatever car they now import. My first irritation was that the engine turns off every time you stop at a red light or otherwise pause. That may save fuel, but when you get into a car that has been sitting in the sun, turn on the aircon, and then at every traffic light the engine stops and the aircon also..... that is not really smart IMHO :/ There is probably a way to get around that, but I do not have the time.....

Other than the engine cut-outs it seemed to handle ok. But then when I jumped on the highway something else happened. I was driving on a great new road (the dual lane Bruce Highway between Brisbane and Gympie), it is a 110 zone, and I saw something vague on the road ahead - wasn't sure what it was - just a small piece of rubbish on the road. I drifted slightly right so the wheels would not pass over that, but then I got this very unnerving feeling where the steering wheel seemed to stop functioning ad the car moved back left. I went striaght over the rubbish, which turned out to be harmless. But I suddenly felt very unsure about the car's steering. I paid attention, and the wheel again seemed to be perfect. I started to think I had imagined the whole thing.

About an hour later, now on a smaller road, but still in a 100km zone, I suddenly got the same sensation - like there was "give" in the steering wheel. Now I started to worry. Was this a fault? Was something about to "let go" in the steering?? I did not enjoy that at 100kmh.

Driving now with intense concentration, I noticed on the dash that there was a green symbol/light that appeared to show a vehicle's position between two lines. I stopped the car, grabbed and read the manual, and discovered that the vehicle had some sort of system to monitor your position within the lane. I carefully tested this over the rest of the drive. I discovered that if you were on a straight road with a clear left line, and a clear centre line, the vehicle would actually make steering commands to keep you within the lane. Again, very carefully, I tested this and even with no hands on, it would keep the vehicle bouncing gently between the left and right borders. I also discovered that if instead of a simple centre line, there were multiple centre lines (here in Qld often there are two lines a couple of feet apart in zones where you should not overtake) the system would not recognize that as the centre. So on the stretches of high-speed highway where it is has been identified as the most dangerous to stray out of your lane, the system suddenly does not work - inspires false confidence?

So what is my point?

First up, I am an experienced driver, and this unexpected interference with my driving confused me.

Second, even after reading the manual I did not understand exactly how or where or what this new system did.

Third, I do not expect that many drivers always read an entire manual of a new car before driving.

Fourth, even in aviation, where pilots should be expected to "read the manual" before flying an aircraft, I understand that the manual for the 787-MAX did not include the new system. Which would make it even more confusing for a pilot who has read the manual and is then experiencing something not covered....

 

[Deleted member 29185]

I guess the upside of your experience @juddles, was that after a few "situations" you got the hang of it. The question is, what would that vehicle do in a real emergency (say that piece of rubbish was actually a small child who strayed onto the highway ... presumably collision avoidance would override the lane control). My car also stops at traffic lights (which I can disable if I like) but it's far from perfect, sometimes not stopping, sometimes starting too early. Technology IMHO, is imperative as an assistance to the operator (on all kinds of machines), but right now, it's not intuitive/robust enough to take over completely outside set and defined boundaries (rail, theme park rides, mining etc) and even then, there are failures ... but there are failures with human operators as well.

I think we have to realise, that life is full of accidents and high speed travel comes with both convenience and risk. I take comfort in the fact that each and every accident usually results in changes that are for the better into the future, however that is little comfort for the friends and family of those that are lost in the learning curve.

 

[Deleted member 29185]

That's where EF comes in handy.

Trouble is, I'm a frequent flier, not an expert flyer! EF is one of those many things that I've just decided I don't need cluttering up life!

Is EF spot on, every time?

 

[Quickstatus]

Technology can have unintended consequences not foreseeable by engineers
Successful resolution of an emergency is usually associated with measures that reduce cognitive load. Measures such as calling for help,using well rehearsed and defined procedures and checklists such as ABC and using technological aids.

However instead of reducing cognitive load emergency technological aids often paradoxically increases it.

 

[OATEK]

Trouble is, I'm a frequent flier, not an expert flyer! EF is one of those many things that I've just decided I don't need cluttering up life!

Is EF spot on, every time?

So far, so good. I use it to set alerts for aircraft change as well, in case it mucks up my seating (eg CX A330 & 777 have different row numbering). Not sure if it would differentiate between, or recognise a change from an 800 to a MAX.

 

[serfty]

Is EF spot on, every time?

Expert Flyer makes a GDS call and returns such information as provided by the Airline(s) in question at the time of the call.

So, aside from looking out of the window at the aircraft, that's close to as as good as it can get.

 

[Major]

Five Ways To Tell the Boeing 737 MAX Apart From Older 737s

 

[theblank]

Fourth, even in aviation, where pilots should be expected to "read the manual" before flying an aircraft, I understand that the manual for the 787-MAX did not include the new system. Which would make it even more confusing for a pilot who has read the manual and is then experiencing something not covered....

Yep it matches well with your analogy. whilst the MAX pilot flies the same plane all the time, he becomes accustomed and then something popped out of left field. He didnt know how to react.

Same as you, you had been driving that car for sometime then something different happened.

("not all analogies bear close examination" - Neil)

 

[Ansett]

If Boeing had failed to provide proper procedures on a new feature that pilots weren't aware of would this make them negligent and thus possibly guilty of manslaughter? If this is indeed found to be the cause of the crash.

 

[suze2000]

*negligent.

 

[RooFlyer]

Presentation to Indonesian Parliament (The Australian, probably pay-walled)

From the Australian:

A presentation to the Indonesian parliament on the Lion Air crash has revealed the pilot basically fought with the aeroplane to the end of the flight.

Appearing before the House of Representatives in Jakarta, National Transportation Safety Committee aviation head Nurcahyo Utomo explained the data retrieved from the flight recorder.

He said the graphs showed that when the Boeing 737 Max began to move, the captain and co-pilot received different airspeed readings.

The parliament heard the aircraft continued to go up and down to a height of 5000 feet, until a “stall condition” was triggered as a result of misleading data coming from one of the angle of attack sensors.

“When it is 5000 feet high, here it is noted that the purple line is automatic trim down, or what is called MCAS. This is a tool to lower the nose of the plane because the plane will stall,” Mr Nurcahyo explained.



“This movement is opposed by the pilot with the blue parameter. So after the trim down, the pilot commanded electric trim continued to fight until the end of the flight.”

He explained that the MCAS trimmed at a faster rate than the pilot commanded trim, making it increasingly difficult to control the aeroplane.

“It was noted at the end of the flight, the automatic trim increased, but the trim of the pilot was shorter,” said Mr Nurcahyo.

“Finally, the number of trims gets smaller and the load on the steering wheel becomes heavy, then the plane drops.”

Analysis of the flight data recorder showed the 737 Max had no engine problems.

Mr Nurcahyo confirmed that the aircraft experienced the “same obstacles” on the previous flight from Denpasar to Jakarta but said in that instance the pilot was able to control the plane.

It is believed the pilots on flight JT610 had prepared for an unreliable airspeed event prior to take-off, and believed that was the issue when they requested to return to Jakarta.

The subsequent high speed crash into the Java Sea on October 29, claimed the lives of all 189 people on board.

Although the flight data recorder has been retrieved and analysed, investigators are still looking for the coughpit voice recorder which will shed more light on the tragedy.

 

[jb747]

Whilst I was trying to get on to an aircraft to Sydney today, I had a chat to an old mate who has just come back to QF after a few years flying 777 and 787. He’s currently flying the 330. He’s flown 767 and 737 with us in the past, but most importantly, his background includes the Empire test pilots’ course. So, he has very wide airline experience, and the training to be able to see and analyse far more than most of us.

His comments about the MCAS were pretty scathing. Something that I didn’t realise, is that it differs from all of the other Boeings in that previously a runway trim would be stopped by simply pulling or pushing in the other direction. Now, you must also use the electric trim to get it to stop. Whilst that should be a pretty normal reaction, it is different...quite dramatically so. And he agreed with my thoughts about using trim as a primary flight control. Students are taught never to do so...and here’s the aircraft doing it.

The last couple of pages of prune are pretty interesting.

 

[Quickstatus]

Would the Stab cutoff switch always work?. The checklist suggests that it may not

 

[AviatorInsight]

Would the Stab cutoff switch always work?. The checklist suggests that it may not

It may not always remove the power which is why the last item, as you saw, is.... Trim Wheel - Grasp and Hold.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

It is believed the pilots on flight JT610 had prepared for an unreliable airspeed event prior to take-off, and believed that was the issue when they requested to return to Jakarta.

Is this a normal part of pre-departure routine (do all 737 pilots around the world prepare for this every time they fly)? Or was it specific to this particular flight, based on previous reports from earlier flights with this aircraft?

If it is the latter, would pilots, faced with a similar situation, normally refuse to fly the aircraft? Or would they be satisfied that preparing for the event is enough to off-set the risk and they'd fly anyway? (Do different airlines handle this sort of thing differently - for example Airline A tells its pilots to proceed but Airline B would tell them to suspend the flight?)