Jetstar accused of exploiting cabin crew

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A little bit off topic, but why do people always seem to have a go at 'Asians' doing 'Australian' jobs?
I have a theory on that one. I think in this case it's largely caused by the way Qantas Group market themselves. I get that QF and JQ are not the same beast, but given the tight level of integration between the two they're basically Siamese twins in most people's minds. I'll leave you to speculate as to which is the evil twin.

QF has sunk an enormous amount of money tapping into people's patriotic spirit in this country. It brands itself as "The Spirit of Australia" and has children singing "I still call Australia home" in front of symbols of Australia. Heck, it even paints a kangaroo on the plane. So we like to think of it as being in the Australian spirit. That it will employ Aussies under Aussie conditions and give everyone a fair go. But of course, the reality is that it's just another big business and it would market to us any way that will get our dollars. So when we get a peak behind the curtain (like is happening now) and we discover that all that Australian spirit stuff is just marketing spin, we're shocked. Just shocked.

Of course their CEO has been indicating for quite some time that all this stuff was going on and that QF considers it to be the future of the business. But somehow we're still drawn in by that alluring image of those children, standing in the Australian desert, proudly singing "I still call Australia home"...
 
As a side point, if it is accepted that the crews are earning a decent wage then the fares should be more in line with airlines such as MH and even AirAsia than what QF and even JQ routinely charge. I think JetStar has done some amazing marketing somewhere along the line in that often their straight economy fares (international) with no baggage or food can be more expensive than economy fares on other full service airlines, but because Australians know jetstar as the 'low cost' airline they automatically go there first.
 
Now we have some more information on why JQ is such a cashcow for QF, at least internationally.

Charge Aussie prices, pay Thai crew in THB. I have no problem with that but if they are treating their crew with disregard I don't want to give JQ any $$$.

PS. I was wondering why Tour East Thailand sounded familiar, then I realised I have been to their office in BKK to confirm cc bookings ex BKK. Funnily enough they are the QF booking agent in Thailand, in which QF own 37% of said company, who also employ the JQ crew. Soon the red kanga will be repainted orange.
 
No wonder why JQ are offering return airfares to NRT for around $500. How dare they.

So why are Thai and all asian based carriers on par and usually more expensive than JQ then?

NRT flights cheap - there's a shock!:rolleyes:

No idea about asian carriers - I said QF - 9 times out of 10 JQ is more expensive when factoring in SC/Points, luggage, entertainment, food and drink.

Not to mention when additional costs when your flight is delayed or cancelled as is often.
 
I have a theory on that one. I think in this case it's largely caused by the way Qantas Group market themselves. I get that QF and JQ are not the same beast, but given the tight level of integration between the two they're basically Siamese twins in most people's minds. I'll leave you to speculate as to which is the evil twin.

QF has sunk an enormous amount of money tapping into people's patriotic spirit in this country. It brands itself as "The Spirit of Australia" and has children singing "I still call Australia home" in front of symbols of Australia. Heck, it even paints a kangaroo on the plane. So we like to think of it as being in the Australian spirit. That it will employ Aussies under Aussie conditions and give everyone a fair go. But of course, the reality is that it's just another big business and it would market to us any way that will get our dollars. So when we get a peak behind the curtain (like is happening now) and we discover that all that Australian spirit stuff is just marketing spin, we're shocked. Just shocked.

Of course their CEO has been indicating for quite some time that all this stuff was going on and that QF considers it to be the future of the business. But somehow we're still drawn in by that alluring image of those children, standing in the Australian desert, proudly singing "I still call Australia home"...

As if to imply that QF's direct home competitor is better in this respect? "Well at least they're not boasting to be the Spirit of Australia." Oh, woo hoo then to holier than thou....

If you want to have a fully Australian airline with all Australian operations from top to bottom, that is economically impossible (unless you can convince some of them to work for peanuts, which is impossible, too). Are you going to pay Australians to live away from their loved ones on the other side of the globe so that they can service aircraft in London so you can be assured that an Australian is servicing Qantas aircraft, even on the other side of the world? Are you prepared to pay an appreciable premium for it (and let's admit, even if QF only focused on making break even overall, there would still need to be an increase in fares)?

The fine line between what should be left for off-shore and what should remain in Australia is not well known. The public is being led only on a trajectory or trend, not the whole graph. In saying that, we can ascertain only three things:
  • Not all staff working for Qantas are Australians;
  • There are Australians working for Qantas; and
  • There are staff who do work for Qantas (e.g. in maintenance, ground servicing, catering, etc.) who are both non-Qantas and non-Australian.



In any case, this is not the point of the whole thread. The thread is talking about Jetstar exploiting cabin crew, in terms of not paying them enough and working 20 hours shifts (well over feasible working limits) and providing inadequate rest opportunities. There's probably some merit in all of those claims, after hearing someone here explain that JQ pilots are pretty strapped themselves, so I can imagine the same for JQ staff. With the exception of SYD/HNL, JQ don't operate any ultra longhaul sectors, so there's no need for a shift to be stretched to 20 hours unless there's a massive delay, and by that time why would you as staff agree to do that unless there are factors why it's better to accept the shift than to claim time out (e.g. if you pass up a shift due to being tired, you don't get paid, or if you decide to pass on a shift which you are operating but then gets delayed, same thing...). That could be the source of the problem (i.e. in theory, if you can't work, don't, but you won't get paid = choosing between two evils; the system is penalising you even though you're doing the safe thing.)

As for pay, why should QF pay crew exactly the same as an Australian irrespective of the local conditions? Does it make everything feel more equitable, or nicer? The fact that the Thai crew are being paid at a rate commensurate to their home country (or better) is not exploitation. Otherwise, let's start a debate about goods made in Chinese sweatshops (not to mention how much profit the company reaps in the retail sale of a cheaply manufactured product).
 
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If you want to have a fully Australian airline with all Australian operations from top to bottom, that is economically impossible (unless you can convince some of them to work for peanuts, which is impossible, too). Are you going to pay Australians to live away from their loved ones on the other side of the globe so that they can service aircraft in London so you can be assured that an Australian is servicing Qantas aircraft, even on the other side of the world? Are you prepared to pay an appreciable premium for it (and let's admit, even if QF only focused on making break even overall, there would still need to be an increase in fares)?
And that's a wonderful, rational argument. Of course once they bring out that children's choir and plant them in front of Australian icons, the whole point of it is that you'll stop thinking rationally about the company and start thinking with your emotions (and your wallet of course). So it should hardly be a surprise that when this sort of thing comes to light that people react with the same emotions that the company has spent so much marketing spin on eliciting.

Of course QF group is going to employ off shore staff under local conditions and of course they're going to wring every possible bit of value from these people that they can. They're a business, that's what they do. Their current CEO has been quite up front about it all. But no one sees Qantas and its evil twin Jetstar as a business. They're an Australian Icon. So no, I'm not surprised about any of this, least of all the horror that it is generating. Qantas group instilled these emotions in people through very clever marketing, it's just bad luck for them that we've got a glimpse behind the curtain and seen it all for the big business it really is.
 
As a side point, if it is accepted that the crews are earning a decent wage then the fares should be more in line with airlines such as MH and even AirAsia than what QF and even JQ routinely charge. I think JetStar has done some amazing marketing somewhere along the line in that often their straight economy fares (international) with no baggage or food can be more expensive than economy fares on other full service airlines, but because Australians know jetstar as the 'low cost' airline they automatically go there first.
2nd that. I can fly Thai on a JQ route with TV, baggage, 2 meals, pillows & blankets, get decent service and seat selection for $150 cheaper than I can fly JQ on the same route. So why would I buy a JQ ticket? Evidently not many people check an online travel site.
 
And that's a wonderful, rational argument. Of course once they bring out that children's choir and plant them in front of Australian icons, the whole point of it is that you'll stop thinking rationally about the company and start thinking with your emotions (and your wallet of course). So it should hardly be a surprise that when this sort of thing comes to light that people react with the same emotions that the company has spent so much marketing spin on eliciting.

Of course QF group is going to employ off shore staff under local conditions and of course they're going to wring every possible bit of value from these people that they can. They're a business, that's what they do. Their current CEO has been quite up front about it all. But no one sees Qantas and its evil twin Jetstar as a business. They're an Australian Icon. So no, I'm not surprised about any of this, least of all the horror that it is generating. Qantas group instilled these emotions in people through very clever marketing, it's just bad luck for them that we've got a glimpse behind the curtain and seen it all for the big business it really is.

Just as much as all the marketing for most shoe companies don't show that they are mostly produced in Asian sweatshops and sold with exorbitant profit margins. Yet, people still buy their shoes. Why does it happen.... same thing with coffee, chocolate, some forms of mining, common food crops, even electronics (e.g. popular Apple devices)...

Is your reason for not flying Qantas because they are this unethical? This...inhumane? Well, I guess that's a good enough reason...

Back to a more rational :rolleyes: level, are you suggesting that Qantas should change its marketing to not explicitly reference that it is Australian? Not to say the complete converse, but just not include nationality in the whole marketing schermozzle?

When you think about it, is there a big business (airline or otherwise) out there which can truly be regarded as really ethical?
 
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Is your reason for not flying Qantas because they are this unethical? This...inhumane? Well, I guess that's a good enough reason...
My reason for not flying Qantas is because they're overpriced. And I'm not suggesting that shoe companies, other airlines, mining corporations or any business for that matter is any better or worse. All I'm doing is discussing some of the reasons that everyone is so outraged about this, even though it shouldn't really come as a surprise.

As for Qantas changing its marketing strategy (or its employment strategy for that matter). Well, I think we all know that won't happen, the Aussie branding has been working pretty well for them and if the only price to pay is an occasional public rebuke on off-shoring then they're getting a good deal out of it. Still, it does seem to me to be a bit dishonest. I like to support locally based businesses where I can, but that's not really Qantas these days.

As an extra note that has just occurred to me, I'll look into my crystal ball and suggest that perhaps in the near future they'll blame the media for this whole thing, suggesting that it's horribly unfair that a big deal is being made of this. But as I've outlined above, I think a big deal is being made of it because of their own marketing, rather than anything nefarious on the media's part.
 
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I know this is a serious issue, but in the original ABC article I struggled to get past the paragraph:

"But for one former Jetstar flight attendant who wishes to be called James, the flight is no trip to paradise."

I spent the whole day wondering why he "wished" to be called James. What is so good about James, why didn't he wish to be called Tony? Why is wishing to be called anything even remotely relevant to the story?

"Annika, as she has asked to be called, says foreign-based cabin crew are under immense pressure"....and now I'm wondering why anybody wishes to be called Annika.

I know, I know, I'm being petty about what is potentially a serious issue, but it is reported in a sensationalist, cliched, style and I, who would like to be known as Bartholomew, expect better of the ABC.
 
IMHO, it's really no different to having a product made overseas and shipped to Australia.

Very few high major brand items are marketed these days as "Australian Made".

The most that can be said is the manufacturer / brand is "Australian Owned".

Why should Qantas/Jetstar be any different?:-|
 
I spent the whole day wondering why he "wished" to be called James. What is so good about James, why didn't he wish to be called Tony? Why is wishing to be called anything even remotely relevant to the story?

"Annika, as she has asked to be called, says foreign-based cabin crew are under immense pressure"....and now I'm wondering why anybody wishes to be called Annika.

It was not clear from the article, but I would suspect that perhaps it is a reference to not using their real names. This may be reflective of a culture of intimidation within Jetstar. Given that people are basically threatened with the sack if they decide they are too fatigued to perform the next sector supports this. (Refering to pilots as 'princesses' when they complain about fatigue is another peice of evidence)

What is not known from the article, is whether Jetstar complained (implicitly or explicitly) to Tour East about their staff refusing to fly that next sector.
 
It was not clear from the article, but I would suspect that perhaps it is a reference to not using their real names. This may be reflective of a culture of intimidation within Jetstar. Given that people are basically threatened with the sack if they decide they are too fatigued to perform the next sector supports this. (Refering to pilots as 'princesses' when they complain about fatigue is another peice of evidence)

What is not known from the article, is whether Jetstar complained (implicitly or explicitly) to Tour East about their staff refusing to fly that next sector.

Yep I understood why they may not want to use their own names, but what possible relevance is there in coming up with a new name? Why not, a former FA who did not want to be named said.........?

I'm just not sure that the reader knowing that a former FA wishes to be called "James" is remotely integral to the story.

It just sensationalises what is potentially a very serious issue. (As does the cliched style!)

Sent from my iPhone by an AFF member who wishes to be called Fizzywig. :)
 
I'm surprised by the Australian marketing angle. Wasn't it Dixon who basically said people don't have to fly qantas because we're Australian, they don't owe us any loyalty on that score. I can't remember exactly but I think Joyce has expressed similar sentiments. So while they market with the word "Australian", they have been explicit in saying that "Australian" is no longer relevant. Form your own judgement about the ethics of the 2 positions.

Oh on the name thing - the choice to be named X is mentioned so you know that those aren't their real names.
 
Yep I understood why they may not want to use their own names, but what possible relevance is there in coming up with a new name? Why not, a former FA who did not want to be named said.........?

I'm just not sure that the reader knowing that a former FA wishes to be called "James" is remotely integral to the story.

It just sensationalises what is potentially a very serious issue. (As does the cliched style!)

But there is more that one FA who did not want to be named. That can only work if there is only one unnamed source. When there is more than one source a name is needed so that the reader or view is not confused between which unnamed FA is making the claims. They can't really say FA1 and FA2. So names are needed to avoid confusion for the viewer/reader.
 
But there is more that one FA who did not want to be named. That can only work if there is only one unnamed source. When there is more than one source a name is needed so that the reader or view is not confused between which unnamed FA is making the claims. They can't really say FA1 and FA2. So names are needed to avoid confusion for the viewer/reader.

Yes I thought about that, it is the logical answer. However the names James appears only once, as in "wishes to be called James" so no confusion with the reader on that one.

They go on to do exactly what you say they can't really do:

"flight attendant said"

"another flight attendant said"

Annika is quoted twice, with enough of a gap between the two to make it necessary for her to have a name in order to make it easier on the reader. (Is she a Thai based crew member?)

Overall it is a pretty poor effort from the ABC. Sloppy writing, cliched and sensationalist.

Sent from my 13" MacBook from an AFF member who wishes to be known as Griselda Pugh
 
Was just listening to Alan Joyce on 3AW just before (he was on about promoting prostate cancer and what QF is doing).

Neil Mitchell of course asked about the JQ cabin crew and also the pilots and I noted this:

He said the JQ cabin crew work on average a 28 hour week. Obviously this is dependant on what their schedule is. So it sounds like there are cases where hours might be stretched, but how long is the break in between?

He also said long haul pilots on QF fly around 550 hours a year. Cathay/EK etc are around 750-800. 1000 hours a year is the limit from memory.

Now not taking either side here so don't flame me! Just listing what was said on the radio..
 
But there is more that one FA who did not want to be named. That can only work if there is only one unnamed source. When there is more than one source a name is needed so that the reader or view is not confused between which unnamed FA is making the claims. They can't really say FA1 and FA2. So names are needed to avoid confusion for the viewer/reader.

But my grandkids watch B1 and B2 and have no trouble with that.:)

PS-I now want to be known as Jasper.:shock:
 
Yes I thought about that, it is the logical answer. However the names James appears only once, as in "wishes to be called James" so no confusion with the reader on that one.

They go on to do exactly what you say they can't really do:

"flight attendant said"

"another flight attendant said"

Annika is quoted twice, with enough of a gap between the two to make it necessary for her to have a name in order to make it easier on the reader. (Is she a Thai based crew member?)

Overall it is a pretty poor effort from the ABC. Sloppy writing, cliched and sensationalist.

But James needs to be named not to avoid confusion with James, but to avoid confusion with Annika. I assume these 2 made the main claims against JQ. Did the other 2 FAs make any claim against JQ or did they support what was claimed by James and Annika? The story is making specific claims against JQ and it is probably required for them to identify exactly who is making the claims. These are real people with names, not just "sources" or "unnamed sources". There is a world of difference and it impacts on credibility of the story. Without a name they are open to the accusation that the journalist is just making stuff up, very easy to dismiss the story. With names they now specific accusations from a real person.

As for sloppy and cliched. I can only suggest that you think it is cliched because all media do that, not just the ABC. In which case, we need to ask why all media do this type of thing. Because that is what is required when making serious accusations in public?

BTW I've been involved in incident investigations, which are supposed to be de-identified, where not even the investigation team knew who was who when using person1 , 2 etc. What hope the public?

But my grandkids watch B1 and B2 and have no trouble with that.:)

Had to get out a real computer to "like" this. Funny thing is I thought of B1 and 2 when I wrote that.
 
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