Is Frequent Flyer Miles ownership moving from employees, to employers?

[ozmille]

Hi all,
isn't there a difference between employee rights and employee benefits?

I do know there is a definite employer benefit by sending us to where we need to be...

 

[nlagalle]

I agree with the comment that for some companies, the ownership of miles is irrelevant, as they could/would negotiate lower fares that don't include the benefit of the FF miles. However, I think this is an option for the largest of companies only, who have the buying power, but less so in medium sized companies, or smaller.

But, again consistent with this topic's definition about asking hard questions, isn't there a difference between employee rights and employee benefits? I never had the right to fly business class, and when my company changed the policy to save money that forced us to fly economy for trans-atlantic flights, everyone was up in arms for a while, .... but no-one left. When they downgraded the car policy, we all cried, .... but nobody left. Why? Because companies do this when times are tough, which usually means it's a last resort, and certainly preferable to layoffs. And because of tough times, it's not that employees have so many options for other vacancies, by definition. Of course, there are always exceptions ... but I'm talking generally. I suppose, after years of flying business class, we (ie where I worked) thought it was our right, but it never was. It was a privilege, a perk .. consistent with the comment in this forum that FF miles are now being offered as a perk in some job postings. In the USA, Southwestern is the cheapest airline .. very, very basic .. soon they'll also charge for a visit to the toilet, or to breath … but many companies force employees now to fly SW because the savings are huge.

Stuart

I guess you need to determine how the ownership of the points is gathered. is it because the Employer paid for the seat or the Employee sat in that seat.

In the case of QF one could argue that the employee owns the points as the points are earnt off the miles travelled.

In the case of DJ, the points are based off the purchase price - arguing the employer owns them.

 

[JohnK]

For me the answer is very simple.

At work I choose whether I want to travel or not. If company wants me to fly with no FF points then no travel, well apart from private jets of course. It really is that simple....

 

[froggerADL]

I haven't heard of this in the IT industry (government employees aside)... My theory is that they can do that when they start paying me overtime for time spent travelling out of hours, and pay me a travel allowance for days away from home.

This is exactly what has happened in the public service. Many lower level staff (<= APS6) are now entiled to paid time for all travel as their is no benefit to them. It rarely pays to be cheap with your staff.

 

[froggerADL]

I guess you need to determine how the ownership of the points is gathered. is it because the Employer paid for the seat or the Employee sat in that seat.

In the case of QF one could argue that the employee owns the points as the points are earnt off the miles travelled.

In the case of DJ, the points are based off the purchase price - arguing the employer owns them.

If you're not a lawyer nlagalle, you should be!

 

[nlagalle]

If you're not a lawyer nlagalle, you should be!

Don't tar me with that brush!!!

 

[Fantic125]

A friend of mine once explained to me the difference between a lawyer and a laboratory rodent;

"The rodent's are useful..."

 

[ozbeachbabe]

I guess you need to determine how the ownership of the points is gathered. is it because the Employer paid for the seat or the Employee sat in that seat.

In the case of QF one could argue that the employee owns the points as the points are earnt off the miles travelled.

In the case of DJ, the points are based off the purchase price - arguing the employer owns them.

I guess if an employer told me they would get the points I'd say "well I don't have frequent flyer membership so you'd better fork out the $80 for it first". No doubt the company wouldn't have the intellect to know you can get it free if joining Woollies Everyday Rewards Program.

I know of ADF employees who have one personal ff no. & one work ff no.

It used to be that QF could inhibit points accrual on ADF pnrs when the form of payment was a particular QF charge card but now most bookings are charged to Diners I'm not certain if it's done the same way or whether it's the fare type that flags the booking to not accrue points.

I had dealings in the 90's with a pharmaceutical company based in New Jersey who used UA business class for their staff & it was their philosophy that as their employees were frequently away from their families for work, the ability to earn points & redeem for free personal travel was a 'perk' they were happy for their staff to have.

After all it's not costing the company anything.

When I worked at a GDS about 10 years ago it involved frequent travel however if the travel day to get to our destination was on a weekend we were given a day in lieu.

I often saved the company money by staying a Saturday night at the destination (with family & friends) & being able to choose a cheaper fare vs flying out Sunday & back Friday which would cost the company a lot more for a HOX type airfare.

If a company told me in a job interview they 'owned' the frequent flyer points I would run a mile in the opposite direction because if they penny pinch on this issue it speaks volumes for their attitude to other areas of their business.

I seem to remember probably 10-15 years ago, a Sydney Corporate Travel Agent spruiking some kind of software called Citrix that did this kind of thing (ie allowed companies to track or keep employees' ff points) to companies such as Channel 9 but I've heard nothing more on the subject since.

 

[stuartbb]

Guys, some really interesting, healthy discussion here. At the risk of being controversial, which I assume is OK, as this forum is defined as the place to ask hard questions, I don't agree with a few of the recent comments .....

@ozbeachbabe --- I agree that the miles are seen as a perk to compensate from being away from the family. You did, though, quote an example of the culture in the 1990's, which included some very good times .... dotcom, etc… But haven't times changed? In 2011, there's a global recession, and companies are looking in every direction to reduce expenses, either to survive or to minimize or delay layoffs. I don't think you statement that "it's not costing the company anything" is accurate. If a company believes it owns the miles as it paid for the ticket, then they are a discount voucher against future flights, so what it costs the company is the vouchers it didn't benefit from. I don't know what's right or wrong, but certainly, the company can choose to believe that, and to implement a policy to reflect it, as some are clearly doing.

You wrote "If a company told me in a job interview they 'owned' the frequent flyer points I would run a mile" … but hold on a minute, perhaps you can add more to your sentence? What if, for example, the company said to you at the same interview "we own the frequent flyer points, but instead, every month we are going to send you, your wife and kids on an all expenses paid holiday to a destination of your choice, for a week". OK, how many would now run a mile? So, I've exaggerated here for effect, but my point is, what if the company owned the miles but they gave you something in return that was also valuable to you? Maybe what they gave you was cheaper for them than the savings they could make via them using the FF miles against future flights .. perhaps because they did a great company deal with a hotel chain to offer you weekends, or whatever. But there's nothing wrong with the company having less expense, if employees are still happy, is there? After all, that saving in expense could save jobs, especially in the current economic climate.

@JOHNK – Can you please help me find a job at the same company as you, because there aren't too many companies or jobs that let you travel when you choose. I've been a road warrior for years, wearing all sorts of different hats, and my job was always to be with the customer .. and sadly, they were usually either a long drive or flight away!

I really appreciate all of your time reading this (1,000 views in 24 hours) and commenting (about 50 so far).

Look forward to more of your views.

Regards

Stuart

 

[nlagalle]

I don't think you statement that "it's not costing the company anything" is accurate. If a company believes it owns the miles as it paid for the ticket, then they are a discount voucher against future flights, so what it costs the company is the vouchers it didn't benefit from.

However this is where redeeming points for flights can fall down - limited availability for the chosen travel time. so what does the company do? Send you on a later flight, so losing a few valuable work hours, or send you earlier (if available) and re-compense you for it? I know it would cost them a lot more in my case to do this. People would also look up and select a flight that was already exhausted on it's FF seat allocation.

What if, for example, the company said to you at the same interview "we own the frequent flyer points, but instead, every month we are going to send you, your wife and kids on an all expenses paid holiday to a destination of your choice, for a week".

Ok but does that become a fringe benefit? Subject to tax? I think you will find it does. Frequent flyer points however, aren't worth anything in the tax mans eyes. I'd still take the points than your example. I can also use them not just for flights if I so choose (QF award store).

 

[JohnK]

@JOHNK – Can you please help me find a job at the same company as you, because there aren't too many companies or jobs that let you travel when you choose. I've been a road warrior for years, wearing all sorts of different hats, and my job was always to be with the customer .. and sadly, they were usually either a long drive or flight away!

I now commute SYD-BNE fortnightly but it is all self funded and I do choose when I travel.

A number of years ago I started a new job in February at an IT company. Travel was never mentioned but as it turned out I got involved in data migration for the rollout of the software in SE Asia.

My first trip in April (2 months later) was travelling to Bangkok on Easter Sunday, working on Easter Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and part of Thursday. We flew back on Thursday night and got back into Sydney on Friday morning which was Anzac Day.

When I got to work on Monday I went to my boss and I said I am now owed 3 days time off in lieu. There was slight protest but I made it clear in no uncertain terms there would be no further travel in my own time unless I got time off in lieu. I got my own way and believe I was not going to do any more travel if they did not see things my way. I managed 7 overseas trips in a 2 year period which was OK but nothing special. I believe one of the trips was the cause of my heart attack some 10 days later.

See this company was smart. Pay economy class airfares and get to destination Sunday night (actually more like (3:00am when going to Kanary Bay) and be ready to go to work at 7:00am the next day and when returning back to Sydney after overnight flight get to work at 9:00am. Yeah like hell I am going to do that. You give me time off in lieu for the Sunday and I will have the day off on the day I am returning.

To be honest I do not need the travel and I had a skill which was in high demand that I was able to negotiate the terms of my employment. The skill is still in high demand but now the jobs are not there anymore and travel is in my time.

I am a fair person but I am not a pushover....

 

[rtyuiop]

Hard times for companies? This is what passes for a negotiating tactic between employers and employees? Don't make me laugh... Does that mean the next time inflation jumps I can use that as a reason to demand a raise?

This is the problem - from my point of view, if my employer starts pulling that kind of thing, that's a damn good reason to leave. Would you like to know what happens to employers that give their employees incentive to leave? Their best employees (those who presumably have the best chance of finding another job) leave, and the company is left with a bunch of mediocre and poor performers, and then goes down the tubes...

This seems like an excellent plan, can't see *any* problems with that.

 

[awilcockson]

Guys,

A word of caution. Actually two.

Data mining.

Let us not forget that stuart works for a company that sells some sort of program to companies that let's them take ownership of the FF points earened by it's employees. Whilst this thread might seem all innocent, remember that Stuart is sitting back quietly taking it all in, and that any hint as to the companies that people work for, the current policies and the amount of company funded travel that people do are pure gold for him when looking for his next sales target.

 

[lovetravellingoz]

I really appreciate all of your time reading this (1,000 views in 24 hours) and commenting (about 50 so far).

Look forward to more of your views.

Regards

Stuart

It surprises me all the company fliers in this thread who are happy to assist Stuart in attempting to lose their own points from themselves in future.

Make no mistake this guy is here to profit himself at your expense. Surprised also that mods did not delete the OP.

Looks like FF Hari Kari is alive and well.

I obtain very few points through work and so it will not affect me. But there are clearly many on this forum who if they lost work related FF points would not be happy.

 

[admin]

Surprised also that mods did not delete the OP.

The mods and I have discussed this thread. Our view is that it is a valid topic for discussion so we have left it, but we are monitoring it. (An earlier thread by the OP was deleted as it was blatantly commercial)

The OP may well be hoping to get information from this topic for his business. In principle, thats OK (many companies do that) but as soon as we feel that he is taking advantage of the situation or starts promoting his services, we will take action.

 

[stuartbb]

@nlagalle – Good points. I worked for a well known company until recently. The company's travel policy was to buy the absolute cheapest flights possible, which meant minimum miles and the most unsociable times possible .. regular red eye flights .. arriving back to home airport 5am, meaning bye bye next day (first day of weekend). This was company policy, to minimize expenses .. nothing to do with FF miles, as we got them. "Sorry that I'm like the walking dead again this weekend kids, but I got some FF miles" … "Yeah, dad, great".

Fair point about taxable benefits .. you might be right … I'd expect careful selection could identify "benefit" that are non taxable.

@JohnK – You did well to convince your boss for time in lieu, and certainly, you deserved it. I'm surprised the company didn't have a policy on this, but perhaps you defined it . I had exactly the same experience as you . .arrive Sunday, ready for work Monday. Our alternative was to leave the company. Sad, but true. Wow, a heart attack … puts things in perspective .. take it easy, John.

@rtyuiop – I don't know what to say … I look around me and see so many people unemployed … top people, others less so … so, yes, I think it's hard times … unrelated to travel, aren't many companies tightening their belts now wherever they can? So isn't travel just one more parameter?

@awilcockson – With all due respect, your posting makes a key incorrect assumption about me in the sentence "Let us not forget … ". I think this is a very interesting, thought provoking, albeit controversial discussion/thread .. and I assume I'm not alone given the number of views and comments in 36 hours. I misjudged last week with my first posting, and I stand humble (well, I sit humble, with a beer at this moment!) … so I have kept this very general, deleted my website address from my profile to not tempt any contact from viewers, and haven’t come close to asking anyone who they work for. I came to this Australian forum because I found it to be one of the most active and impressive in the world on FF programs, (is it?), and therefore thought it a good place to discuss, which I think it is.

@lovetravellingoz – please, please, why are you painting me like this? For some reason, you have decided I want to take your FF point from you. This is absolutely not the case… but my hands are tied here regarding explaining the details, as I don't want to cross the line as per @admin's post … Would it surprise you to know that I write and publish children's books, and usually spend Friday morning's storytelling at kindergardens (and for free!)? If you would see my Facebook page, you'd see me drowning under a sea of smiling 5 year olds after a book telling session …

Have a great day everyone ... Thanks for thinking through this hard question with me, and I hope it's raining less where you are!

Stuart

 

[rtyuiop]

@rtyuiop – I don't know what to say … I look around me and see so many people unemployed … top people, others less so … so, yes, I think it's hard times … unrelated to travel, aren't many companies tightening their belts now wherever they can? So isn't travel just one more parameter?

Bear in mind that how hard times are depends very much on your industry and location...

And you're right - if my company said 'OK, we're buying fares without FF points from now on but we're also paying you $WXYZ extra a year' I wouldn't complain at all assuming the WXYZ was suitable. However the chances of that are extremely low.

Danny

 

[medhead]

I think your asking questions and making statements that are not relevant in the context of Australia. Remember that this is the Australian Frequent Flyer forum.

There were also a number of comments about government use of the FF miles that clearly stated they try to manage them internally, but probably not very well .. the point being, they didn't go back to the airline for lower prices, without FF miles. Why? Who knows?

No, Governments haven't gone back for cheaper fares. Instead their have banned the earning of FF points, at least in 2 of the 9 Australian governments. Qantas here are well aware of this and are able to give status to a flyer and not points.

Besides there are much easier ways in Australia for a company to save money on airfares, without stuffing around on FF points. Obviously, things are different in the USA or wherever you are.

This is exactly what has happened in the public service. Many lower level staff (<= APS6) are now entiled to paid time for all travel as their is no benefit to them. It rarely pays to be cheap with your staff.

And some state governments have paid employees during travel time as well. I guess that makes up for the fact that government employees are paid so much less than private industry.

But haven't times changed? In 2011, there's a global recession, and companies are looking in every direction to reduce expenses, either to survive or to minimize or delay layoffs.

Again in the context of Australia, times haven't really changed that much. Check out Australia's economic performance. I left my employer a year ago, not because they wanted my points but because of similar rubbish. I had no trouble finding higher paying employment.

What if, for example, the company said to you at the same interview "we own the frequent flyer points, but instead, every month we are going to send you, your wife and kids on an all expenses paid holiday to a destination of your choice, for a week". OK, how many would now run a mile? So, I've exaggerated here for effect, but my point is, what if the company owned the miles but they gave you something in return that was also valuable to you?

Hang on a second here. Aren't these companies struggling in these hard times? Why would they be giving away things for free. You sound like a HR person. Clearly the company is trying to make money from this arrangement so they muct be taking something that is more valuable and giving me something less valuable in return. Then there is the fact that after 3 months suddenly the "free family holiday" won't be able to happen this month - "but don't worry we'll make it up to you next month". Yep, and my previous employer offered me an annual international conference in lieu of a pay rise. I ran a mile because this will quickly not happen for "operational" reasons. I would run a mile if the employer want my FF points as well.

Finally, I think you might need to research the Australian taxation system.

I seem to remember probably 10-15 years ago, a Sydney Corporate Travel Agent spruiking some kind of software called Citrix that did this kind of thing (ie allowed companies to track or keep employees' ff points) to companies such as Channel 9 but I've heard nothing more on the subject since.

My only experience with Citrix was to see it used to provide a desktop environment to a dumb terminal, hence saving money on buying PCs. Perhaps they were providing the FF points tracking software in a Citrix environment? :?:

Look forward to more of your views.

Regards

Stuart

Sure, where do I send the invoice?

 

[lovetravellingoz]

@lovetravellingoz – For some reason, you have decided I want to take your FF point from you.

You are incorrect.

I clearly stated that my FF points are not sourced from company expenditure. As I am self-funded companies cannot take points from me as none are given (or at least barely none).

 

[Moody]

I think this situation is being over-analysed to death. There is a big difference between public and private employment, and I have had experience with both. When I was in public employment my salary and benefits were very regimented, with standard starting, finishing and meal break times (though overlaid with complex flexitime rules), overtime rules (including when meals and taxis could and could not be claimed), and finally travel allowance and expense rules. At one point I was seconded down to Melbourne and by staying in cheap digs and/or bludging off friends I basically bought a motorbike with the extra cash I made. If they had wanted my frequent flyer points at that time I wouldn't have given a toss.

Now I work for a private company and do a reasonable amount of domestic and overseas travel. More often than not this travel is at least partly outside work hours, as that is often the only way to be productive whilst not spending too much time away from the family. One of the paybacks for this travel are the FF points that I then use to subsidise OS trips with the family. The SC also help me to attain Gold FF level which has also gained my family the odd upgrade (IMHO).

Hypothetically if my employer tried to claw these points and SCs back then I would have no compunction with clawing my time back with my family, as there would now be nothing in it for them. On a standard Singapore trip that would lose 2 out of the 5 days, so a 40% loss of my time to gain less than 5% back on the airfare. Don't make me laugh!

So good luck, Stuart, in your attempts to sell this idea as a money-spinner to gullible companies. It will certainly be of use to me in deciding who I don't want to work for.