How do you know if you're a dual citizen or not?

[ozbeachbabe]

But wait, there's more. The latest developments see One Nation Senator Malcolm Roberts who was born in India and has a Welsh born father in the spotlight. He has been recorded as a British National in the past and allegedly made attempts to renounce his British Citizenship but hasn't been forthcoming with evidence that it has been officially renounced but if Pauline said so it must be true.

Malcolm Roberts 'choosing to believe' he was never British amid citizenship furore - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

This depends whether the parents are themselves British 'by descent'. If they are, british nationality does not automatically pass to children born outside the UK. If they are citizens other than by descent, nationality will pass.

Still that just makes it all the more confusing as to whether someone may be a dual national or not.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Still that just makes it all the more confusing as to whether someone may be a dual national or not.

I know what you mean, but it's not really like that. My post was just a more complex way of saying 'If you weren't born in the UK, and your children weren't born in the uk, then the children probably aren't automatically British citizens'.

 

[theweaselsteve]

I believe that my daughter could be a British citizen very easily as both my wife and i were born in the UK, but there would certainly be some paperwork to complete. I guess if we look at some of the recent examples where children were given citizenship at a very young age then it is feasible that they might not know about it.

 

[Deleted member]

Yes. I don't really understand why it matters either. I do however, find it very difficult to believe that you could be a dual citizen and not know it. My wife and I are from the UK. She has had dual citizenship as long as she can remember as her Mother was born here. I applied for mine a couple of years ago. Our daughter was born here and is solely Australian. She could become a dual UK citizen (and probably will) but I believe there is a certain amount of paperwork involved. I can't believe you could become a citizen of any country without filling in paperwork.

There was a time when Ireland (The Irish republic) automatically gave citizenship to the children of Irish nationals irrespective of where they were born. I have a friend who just discovered this the other day. He never knew he was an Irish citizen. And no , he isn't in politics

 

[Deleted member]

My situation is a little less clear.
I have an NZ passport (by descent) and a British Passport having been born in a British protectorate. I migrated to,Australia in 1973 and served in the Australian army. I have (supposedly) all the rights and obligations of an Australian citizen, the vote, Medicare etc etc . I was considering at some point applying for an Aussie Passport / citizenship. But I unsure what the benefit would be.

 

[Timtammi]

I think there is a difference to being entitled to citizenship of a certain country and actually being a citizen of that country. Passports dont count either as that is just a travel document ie just cause you don't have one, doesn't mean you aren't a citizen of that country. I was born in the UK, to Australian parents. Have lived in Australia most of my life. While I am entitled to Australian citizenship by descent, I am not a citizen because my parents did not register my birth with the Australian Embassy (ddint know they had to) and I have never applied for it. I do have a UK passport, and permanent residence here. Like GPH, I was voting before they changed the rules so I can vote, get medicare etc etc,, jsut cant hold political office. But I already knew that. I did try to start the process to get Australian citizenship but the application was too onerous and went in the too hard basket.

 

[OATEK]

I think there is a difference to being entitled to citizenship of a certain country and actually being a citizen of that country.

That is why I pasted the extract from S44 earlier: "entitled to the rights or privileges of a subject or a citizen of a foreign power". I was privately musing as to whether you have to exercise those rights by applying, or whether the mere fact they are available to you is enough to fall foul of the Constitution.

 

[coriander]

There was a time when Ireland (The Irish republic) automatically gave citizenship to the children of Irish nationals irrespective of where they were born. I have a friend who just discovered this the other day. He never knew he was an Irish citizen. And no , he isn't in politics

That is still the case.

My wife's father was born in Eire, migrated to Australia, became an Australian citizen, fought in the Solomons in WW2. Mrs C was born in Australia and until mid last year had no idea she was an Irish citizen. It was a simple matter for her to apply for an Irish (ie EU) passport with no more hassle than an Australian passport. Our children just have to show that their mother is an Irish citizen and they too have Irish passports (which will make for enhanced job opportunities as they both work for multi-nationals where travel is involved).

 

[Lemon_Party]

That is why I pasted the extract from S44 earlier: "entitled to the rights or privileges of a subject or a citizen of a foreign power". I was privately musing as to whether you have to exercise those rights by applying, or whether the mere fact they are available to you is enough to fall foul of the Constitution.

With the literal interpretation as you note, surely there would be far more pollies affected by the unfolding citizenship saga? Given that a lot of Australia's population is rooted in immigration, surely a large amount of the population would fall into that category? To be honest, when the issue with the greens senators first came up I thought it was a strange scenario to have, given the amount of people who seem to have UK/european/NZ/SA roots in Australia and dual nationalities seemingly extremely common.

Privately it was pretty upsetting. As a dual national myself, its ruined any aspirations I may have had about jumping on board the gravy train...

 

[Deleted member]

Frankly I think it's all a bit silly. If the offending politicians want to stay as politicians then renounce their (dual) citizenship if not. Then resign. I can see a lot of taxpayer money being spent on witch hunts and needless committees to review and research this. :-(

 

[amaroo]

I did some research today. Looks like I'm a deadset certainty (if I wanted) to add a couple more passports to my collection. I'm currently a citizen of Australia and UK ..... looks like I can add Ireland and New Zealand to the list.

 

[defurax]

French citizenship is automatic if at least one parent is a French citizen. No need to apply for a citizenship certificate or passport.

 

[ozbeachbabe]

There was a time when Ireland (The Irish republic) automatically gave citizenship to the children of Irish nationals irrespective of where they were born. I have a friend who just discovered this the other day. He never knew he was an Irish citizen. And no , he isn't in politics

Federal Oposition Leader Bill Shorten's father was a born in the UK so he would be a dual national. Wonder if he has renounced his UK Citizenship? In the article below he describes his mother as being Irish/Catholic so if she was born in Ireland he would also automatically be a citizen of Ireland too.

https://web.archive.org/web/2014072...ovement-against-howard-governments-ir-changes

 

[Pushka]

Federal Oposition Leader Bill Shorten's father was a born in the UK so he would be a dual national. Wonder if he has renounced his UK Citizenship? In the article below he describes his mother as being Irish/Catholic so if she was born in Ireland he would also automatically be a citizen of Ireland too.

https://web.archive.org/web/2014072...ovement-against-howard-governments-ir-changes

That would be gold!

 

[Happy Trails]

Someone like Kim Jong-un could have a bit of fun, bestowing citizenships on unsuspecting foreign pollies.

 

[opusman]

That is why I pasted the extract from S44 earlier: "entitled to the rights or privileges of a subject or a citizen of a foreign power". I was privately musing as to whether you have to exercise those rights by applying, or whether the mere fact they are available to you is enough to fall foul of the Constitution.

Until the High Court rules on that aspect of S44 it remains unclear.

 

[wandering_fred]

I think all countries should follow the lead of the USA. Offspring of any of their citizens (born in-country) are automatically citizens, even if no application is made. And the tax laws would automatically be changed to require income taxes to be paid on world-wide income, regardless of source. I think this would "encourage" renunciation at the first possible occasion. But then like the USA, renunciation would cost money and be potentially liable for income taxes for a defined future period.

Discuss.

Without wandering

Fred

 

[Keith009]

I was a dual national for about 7 months after naturalising as an Australian. My original citizenship was Malaysian. Whilst I have no intention of pursuing a career in federal politics, I've never been a fan of dual nationality - I don't begrudge those who are dual nationals, I just feel uncomfortable myself being a dual national as citizenship to me is the ultimate statement of allegiance to a nation state and membership of a unique political community.

In any case Malaysia does not allow dual citizenship - this is in fact written in the Malaysian constitution itself. But they didn't make it easy to renounce Malaysian citizenship! When I rang the High Commission in Canberra, I pointed out a provision in their constitution that allows the government of Malaysia to unilaterally strip me of citizenship as I've become a dual national and exercised the entitlements of my Australian citizenship - so couldn't they just exercise their constitutional powers and spare me the rigmarole of going through the renunciation process? Long story short, turns out they're too incompetent to enforce their own nationality law and I had to actively apply and incur additional expenses to renounce Malaysian citizenship. The forms are in Malay which I don't understand - they provided a basic translation, and the biggest expense was probably getting a Notary Public to witness me signing the form as no one else would touch documents written in a foreign language. I wasn't confident that I'd filled in the form correctly so also provided a stat dec outlining the ways I have exercised my Australian citizenship (membership of a major political party, enrolling to vote, voting at a state election) and could they please enforce their own nationality law by unilaterally extinguishing my Malaysian citizenship anyway even if they find mistakes on the application form. Took about 7 months in the end before I got a letter - that assuming Google Translate hasn't gotten it all wrong - confirmed that I'm no longer Malaysian and thanking me for my service to the nation...

I suspect I wouldn't have been as motivated to renounce if I had a more practical 2nd citizenship or one of another like-minded Anglosphere state, but it actually felt liberating when the confirmation of renunciation arrived - probably almost as proud a day as when I officially became Aussie. It was also relatively easy for me compared to other people who tried to renounce Malaysian citizenship and got the runaround and being lectured by High Commission staff about "loyalty."

I suppose as a migrant things like your citizenship status is something I'm acutely aware of, probably more so than most. I'm always stunned by how little awareness people can have of their own legal / citizenship status and the implications for what it means for their rights, entitlements etc in any country - parliamentarians aside, the more garden variety usually consists of Brits who have lived here forever thinking they're citizens and subsequently inadvertently overstay or those who arrive here as kids but get into trouble with the law as adults and get deported to a country they barely know as they or their parents haven't been bothered enough to take out citizenship.

I do feel sorry for Larissa and Matt if he isn't lying (I think the Scott Ludlam situation is arguably a bit more dodgy) - as I do feel what happened to them is unfair and for Larissa she relied too much on her parents' own inaccurate understanding of Canadian citizenship law when she should have probably done more due diligence - not unlike a lot of accidental Americans trying to renounce US citizenship now, which they've never wanted, to avoid global taxation. I'd hope the High Court takes a more nuanced view of s44i going forward as quite clearly neither Larissa nor Matt sought or wanted Canadian/Italian citizenships let alone show signs of bearing allegiance to Canada or Italy.

 

[Keith009]

Until the High Court rules on that aspect of S44 it remains unclear.

Someone on my Facebook wall pointed out that the 'entitlement' provision could extend to anyone of a Jewish faith as they can exercise Israel's law of return. I sincerely hope no one tries to test this in the High Court.

 

[Keith009]

Federal Oposition Leader Bill Shorten's father was a born in the UK so he would be a dual national. Wonder if he has renounced his UK Citizenship? In the article below he describes his mother as being Irish/Catholic so if she was born in Ireland he would also automatically be a citizen of Ireland too.

https://web.archive.org/web/2014072...ovement-against-howard-governments-ir-changes

One of key requirements of nominating as a Labor candidate for Federal Parliament is demonstrating that you've renounced your foreign citizenship the minute there is any possibility that you may be a dual citizen. The process is quite exhaustive as I understand it and increased in importance after Sue v Hill- the state office will research overseas citizenship laws if a candidate is foreign-born, family trees etc.