Hostages Taken in Martin Place

[Frequent-Flyer]

Let's not beat around the bush, I'm like the next person to think that events like these can end peacefully, but in reality people die, innocent people at that. The police did an excellent job, yes, however the police need to act within the public's acceptable behavior and this is skewed to taking the softly softly approach.

Reality is that this guy went into the cafe to hurt people, since he had a gun then I'd read that as he more than likely wanted to kill people. In these cases I don't think the softly softly approach works, hence my original comment, strike first & strike hard, otherwise we're just playing into this and other idiots hands.

thats all

 

[JohnM]

The point I was trying to make was that I don't think this had anything to do with ISIS/IS/ISIL - call those freaks what you like.

It has been linked to ISIS by the very fact that they have been calling on People world wide to undertake same and or similar acts and was it not an Australian recently killed in Syria that called specifically for Australian Muslims to fight the cause here in Australia. Was it not this call that contributed to the actions of the young lad that was shot recently by police in Melbourne?

To Say that this has nothing to do with ISIS etc is IMHO not correct.

Granted - I meant in some sort of organised way.

 

[dajop]

Reality is that this guy went into the cafe to hurt people, since he had a gun then I'd read that as he more than likely wanted to kill people. In these cases I don't think the softly softly approach works, hence my original comment, strike first & strike hard, otherwise we're just playing into this and other idiots hands.

So someone holds people hostage, indicates that if he is killed bombs will be detonated elsewhere. Wouldn't you try and hold him out as long as possible, whilst you undertake a reasonable level of due diligence on the bomb detonation claims, and then make an appropriate decision to act? Or would you just shoot ASAP on a presumption the detonation claims are false?

 

[kpc]

According to my sister in law (she was being texted by her friend), the coward fu*kwit claimed to have a bomb on him that would detonate if he was shot. He also claimed to have bombs planted throught the CBD hence why places like the opera house, David Jones etc were evacuated. Can't verify this, but apparently the Lindt Cafe was previously part of a bank and may have had bullet proof glass. I'm sure all would be revealed in time, I have also learnt tonight that a close family member went to school with one of the other hostages (she also survived). All I can say is that if it wasn't for the actions of the NSW police, my sister in law's friend almost certainly would have been killed. I take my hat off to their bravery and professionalism....how many of us here questioning the decisions made under extreme pressure, would put their hand up to storm that cafe?

 

[BAM1748]

Let's not beat around the bush, I'm like the next person to think that events like these can end peacefully, but in reality people die, innocent people at that. The police did an excellent job, yes, however the police need to act within the public's acceptable behavior and this is skewed to taking the softly softly approach.

Reality is that this guy went into the cafe to hurt people, since he had a gun then I'd read that as he more than likely wanted to kill people. In these cases I don't think the softly softly approach works, hence my original comment, strike first & strike hard, otherwise we're just playing into this and other idiots hands.

thats all

re my original comment, you can't reason with a terrorist.

 

[Pushka]

Re shooting while the criminal was standing at the window. One of the claims he made one of the hostages state was that there were 2 more bombs in the CBD. And no one really knew what he'd taken into the cafe.

A lot of the comments about how to handle him have been made with the benefits of hindsight.

I'm sure if they thought it safe they would have shot him if they could.

And what now constitutes a terrorist attack? A person acting on their own? A duo as in the butchery against the soldier in England? Or the mass attack on USA.

 

[BAM1748]

According to my sister in law (she was being texted by her friend), the coward fu*kwit claimed to have a bomb on him that would detonate if he was shot. He also claimed to have bombs planted throught the CBD hence why places like the opera house, David Jones etc were evacuated. Can't verify this, but apparently the Lindt Cafe was previously part of a bank and may have had bullet proof glass. I'm sure all would be revealed in time, I have also learnt tonight that a close family member went to school with one of the other hostages (she also survived). All I can say is that if it wasn't for the actions of the NSW police, my sister in law's friend almost certainly would have been killed. I take my hat off to their bravery and professionalism....how many of us here questioning the decisions made under extreme pressure, would put their hand up to storm that cafe?

It was relatively early on they dismissed the 4 bomb bomb threat.

Banks only ever make the teller area secure against firearms, the public areas are not and for this very reason it would give any robber known security against the police and it gives them protection to carry out their robbery.

While I certainly hope the NSW Police did the right things in the cericumstances I will hold my final judgement until we find out who shot the hostages. (the Police on the ground should not be punished but a public learning excercise in taking it on the chin should it be the worst scenario. Perhaps the police command though as their decision to try and wait it out)

Believe me, I'm certainly hoping the Police did all the right things.

 

[Pushka]

I suspect the criminal's shot gun fired a few pellets which is why there were some "superficial" injuries.

 

[medhead]

You know, some people need to realise Hollywood isn't real. The window itself can cause a bullet to change direction. It's the physics of the real world as opposed to Hollywood physics. There is no guarantee the bullet would hit assuming they could even get a bead on him.

I'm also aware of at least one suspicious package event that happened on Monday morning in or near the cbd.

To answer kpc I'd certainly line up to enter. Even if my disability means I'd fail the police physical. Also well worth remembering that once the guy starting shooting there was only one option and it involved people dying.

 

[anat0l]

Here's a bit of a mild diversion.

How does one, in this country, obtain a gun (in this case, a shotgun) given our strict gun laws?

As far as I know, guns can only be held by people under very particular circumstances, and all require permits. Notwithstanding stealing someone else's gun (I'd be more alarmed if they were stolen from a gun shop or some sort of armory).

 

[markis10]

Here's a bit of a mild diversion.

How does one, in this country, obtain a gun (in this case, a shotgun) given our strict gun laws?

As far as I know, guns can only be held by people under very particular circumstances, and all require permits. Notwithstanding stealing someone else's gun (I'd be more alarmed if they were stolen from a gun shop or some sort of armory).

You buy one on the black market! Pretty easy apparently, meanwhile the army still has a few things missing, including a significant number of RPGs. Where there is a will there is a way, sadly.

.

While I certainly hope the NSW Police did the right things in the cericumstances I will hold my final judgement until we find out who shot the hostages. (the Police on the ground should not be punished but a public learning excercise in taking it on the chin should it be the worst scenario. Perhaps the police command though as their decision to try and wait it out)

Believe me, I'm certainly hoping the Police did all the right things.

One of the reports I read was from a journo with one of the snipers in the CH7 office, who called in one of the hostages in the window being shot prior to the storming of the cafe. Obviously whether its true or not will come out in the wash, however the theory that the police did nothing to provoke action until something occurred internally with one of the hostages trying to grab the gun does seem to be a popular one.

 

[moa999]

From what I have seen from the ch7 video and some accounts in the paper.

At 2am appears the manager again grabs the gunman and another bunch of people sprint for it (he also reportedly did the same thing at the earlier escape and then got beaten up).
He then seemingly is shot and the sniper in the 7 premises reports "Window 2. Hostage down"
Based on preagreed scenarios police immediately enter (I suspect on the basis that one hostage is down things will escalate in any event).
Somewhere in the next 30-odd seconds a number of other hostages and a policeman are shot (unclear whether by the gunman or crossfire), and one further hostage dies of a heart attack enroute to hospital.

All very sad, and one very troubled individual

 

[anat0l]

You buy one on the black market! Pretty easy apparently, meanwhile the army still has a few things missing, including a significant number of RPGs. Where there is a will there is a way, sadly.

Well, fan-bl**dy-tastic...

I guess there will always be a black market. And you'd think the army could do better for themselves; like we're not paying them enough to take care of their household affairs as well as strengthen our borders?

 

[medhead]

Well, fan-bl**dy-tastic...

I guess there will always be a black market. And you'd think the army could do better for themselves; like we're not paying them enough to take care of their household affairs as well as strengthen our borders?

The thing about laws is that they only work of people obey them. People opposed to the gun laws have always argued that they will only hurt those who a law abiding anyway. But those laws do produce a general reduction in gun availability in society.

As for the pay of the defence force. Pretty ironic. They've always been paid poorly and the last pay offer is below cost of living as well as taking away leave. On the whole no they ain't paid enough.

 

[anat0l]

As for the pay of the defence force. Pretty ironic. They've always been paid poorly and the last pay offer is below cost of living as well as taking away leave. On the whole no they ain't paid enough.

Sheesh, and to think all that campaigning that the defence forces did to encourage all those entering or already in university study... for what? Peanuts...except tax free?

What is all our defence budget going towards then?! Or are we seriously underfunding our defence forces? (Not that I necessarily advocate for a categorical increase in defence spending, but little excuse for underpaying them)

Sorry for the O/T line...



The incident in SYD has made the papers - even front page - here in Switzerland. There isn't as much discussion on it as in Australia, or even the BBC, but I am part of another online forum mainly consisting of expatriates in Switzerland. One of the forum members was friends (same class cohort) with one of the hostages who was killed.

 

[BAM1748]

You buy one on the black market! Pretty easy apparently, meanwhile the army still has a few things missing, including a significant number of RPGs. Where there is a will there is a way, sadly.



One of the reports I read was from a journo with one of the snipers in the CH7 office, who called in one of the hostages in the window being shot prior to the storming of the cafe. Obviously whether its true or not will come out in the wash, however the theory that the police did noting to provoke action until something occurred internally with one of the hostages trying to grab the gun does seem to be a popular one.

I hope so and grabbing the gun I think has been verified by two sources.

 

[medhead]

Both Mr Small and the former officer were skeptical about theories the gunman could have been shot through the window.
Both said it appeared the gunman had shown himself early in the day, before snipers would have been in position and also before police were in possession of vital information, such as how many gunmen were in the café.
"It's a very dangerous thing to do, for a start you don't know what's going to happen to the projectile once it goes though the glass," said the former senior officer.

Sydney siege: experts back police policy to negotiate with Man Haron Monis

 

[burmans]

It has been linked to ISIS by the very fact that they have been calling on People world wide to undertake same and or similar acts and was it not an Australian recently killed in Syria that called specifically for Australian Muslims to fight the cause here in Australia. Was it not this call that contributed to the actions of the young lad that was shot recently by police in Melbourne?

To Say that this has nothing to do with ISIS etc is IMHO not correct.

I think you are both corrected, the indications are that he was not ISIS but possibly WANTED to be. But that doesn't indicate there is a causal relationship, that's like me suggesting the Catholic church caused paedophilia (which is clearly untrue but is the same sort of implication as in some of this argument).

 

[medhead]

More reports suggesting he was nothing more than a criminal who would use anything to hide his true self.

Sydney siege: Iran says it 'requested extradition' of gunman Man Haron Monis in 2000

 

[BAM1748]

Sydney siege: experts back police policy to negotiate with Man Haron Monis

For better or for worse, following the London Tube bombings I became a trained negotiator (perhaps in hindsight a poor thing on the domestic front as every disagreement with my girlfriend she thinks I am analysing her and using 'mind games' to get my way ).

Waiting is often the low risk approach but for terrorists the prize is to remain in the spotlight of the media for as long as possible as a scare tactic. Waiting is certainly low risk for those not actually held hostage and creates a calm sense for the terrorist prior to springing a surprise hostage rescue. By letting the other party take the first action is give you justification to move in and come out clean.

But, as I have said, you can't reason with someone who thinks the outcome is martyrdom, terrorists only have a win win situation and the police have a win or loose outcome.

It's always easy to back the lowest risk practise of waiting but what were they waiting for; him to fall asleep or make the first move which justifies what ever action comes next, it takes courage to be the one making the decision to move first.

Without being there in command it's only my opinion.

Matt