Has Qantas lost your business due to its failure to provide customer service?

I am more confident travelling only with trip it and digital docs - as long as it's stored locally and doesn't require internet.
I have all that but take printed versions of all confirmations as I am more comfortable having backups that do not require batteries (Also, a printed Tripit summary)



Back on topic, today I used the normal number to try to make the changes to the award booking I recently mentioned. 70 odd minute wait before feeding chosen flights to agent, yes they could be done, but at a 30K additional points cost (not 5k) and an increase in +++, not the expected nearly 50% refund. I queried strongly these but they would not budge. After rechecking carefully the route, cabins etc. (correct) I said forget it - cancel the booking outright and ended the call.

A few minutes later I had made a new booking with what I wanted at the expected cost.

Now comes the 8 week wait for the full refund.
 
So that's "no, I only tried to book a classic reward or red e-deal fare"?

I'm not sure what you're getting at but no, I didn't try to book a Flex or paid Business ticket. Nor should I have had to, booking 2.5 hours prior to departure when all fare classes were wide open. I even checked the ticketing rules for red e-Deals and I was trying to book well before the ticketing deadline.

Now, if there was actually some rule that said you can't book a red e-Deal 150 minutes before departure (there isn't), it would have been helpful if the website didn't display the fares or if somebody at the airport or call centre could have told me this! This is also kinda the point - it was impossible to access any sort of customer service, and I don't think that's good enough.
 
I'm still waiting for flight credits for two trips cancelled literally months ago, Compare that to Virgin where getting the refund into your travel bank takes approximately 2 minutes. Also Virgin offer far more flexible options for spending Travelbank (credits can be combined easily as you wish, doesn't have to be same passenger or number of passengers, etc.)

Not to mention the difference in call centre wait times. Damn, there, I''ve mentioned it.

These days I only fly Qantas if Virgin have no acceptable alternative schedule.
 
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As soon as AJ goes, the better it will be. Along with his senior exec team, they are toxic people.
So, this is not a response to @TheInsider as such, nor the response of a QF ‘plant’, but the above comment raises some questions for me.
The primary one being, why do you think anyone else, in the same position, would do any different? What I’ve not seen discussed here, or any of the other sort of ‘QF is bad’ threads is a broader or more wholistic view.

Let me also note that this is pure speculation, I know nothing more than the average punter (whomever that is…).

So, what if QF provides customer services the way it currently does, because that’s all it can do right now? I don’t for a minute think any CEO, nor exec team, sets out to piss people off. The opposite is true, they all want to win awards for being worlds best, so why would they take decisions that create angst? Why would they enact policies that annoy people; that antagonise their workforce; that limit the upside for their companies? I believe the simple answer is because they have to. In QF’s case, because there may not be any other better alternatives that keep the company going.

You may have read some of the quite ‘conspiratorial’ posts by @RAM over the past few years, and whilst I have no facts to support or ignore the issues that AFFer has raised, it does seem logical that QF is sailing very close to financial armageddon and simply doesn’t have the cash to provide world leading, or even what we would likely consider acceptable (for QF) customer service. More broadly, there have been cuts in almost every part of the QF organisation, sales and lease backs, mortgages on airframes etc. We also know that QF have long been ‘imaginative’ with their financials (various JQ accounting practices?) to make everything tell the PR story they want told.

So why? No exec would want to do that, even if it did increase shareholder return, because then they destroy their brand. Instead, I’m sure they’re all trying to tread a very fine line between surviving and maximising profits and they’re doing it in an industry that has always been problematic.

Consider BA, they have done many things similar to QF and anyone reading BA fora on Flyertalk would recognise much of the same disappointment as seen on negative QF threads here. A proper case study would like find the more frequent flyers of all legacy, or full service airlines, expressing disappointment at how things have changed for the worse over the past 5, 10, or even 20 years. I’m sure the various heads of BA, AA, LH, UA, NZ etc, have all released mission statements aiming for ‘worlds best’, but then begun the process of the death of a thousand cuts in order to save a little money here, a little more money there. Call it ‘enhancements’ if you want, but from a customer pov it all slowly adds up to less customer service over different airline areas.

I suggest that this is purely logical behaviour from senior company staff who are battling to keep their organisations afloat, in a marketplace where FR, U2, WN, and all of the various AirAsia brands, and all of the hundreds of other LCCs and ULCCs are slowly but surely taking revenue from the ‘legacy’ companies, but more so, are changing the expectations of the marketplace. An airline ticket costs $45 and for that you get a seat from A to B and that’s it…

I don’t endorse 3, 4, or 5 hour waits for customer service, but I do sort of understand why decisions may have been taken to use cheaper labour. Or why every new round of wage bargaining might have a company trying to squeeze their workforce to reduce costs. Or why JetConnect was developed, or why Alliance, Network, Cobham and other sub-units?, sub-brands?, whatever they are called, are used to try and lower costs to compete with LCCs.

However, I definitely don’t subscribe to the overly simplistic view that Alan Joyce is an idiot and he and his exec team are out to screw everyone over. Rather, I’d suggest they are acting entirely rationally in their capitalist market and are probably trying to take what they consider the best decisions to keep their company going. I make no comment on whether a different CEO worth $1m a year could or would have done any better… that’s a debate for a different thread (does so called exec level ‘talent’ actually make a measurable difference to company performance? Or, is any exec worth $20m a year? - discuss).

Anyway, in conclusion, (thanks to the one person still reading at this point…) will QFs current customer service woes affect my spend with the company, probably not, because I’ve long been what I consider a value AFFer and never really stuck with QF if I didn’t have to. I’ve chosen my spend on a number of factors and will continue to do so, even if QFs perceived offering continues along the race for the bottom. I sort of understand why they’re doing what they are, in the same way you can sort of understand why the US big-3 airlines are the way they are, or why different airport security emphasises different things (and maddens us so). Unfortunately for all of us in Australia, QF is the big player so we can’t always vote with our feet/wallets and the ‘problem’ will remain.

Final point (I promise). It will be interesting to see how QF reacts, having potentially trashed its reputation more broadly than it may have expected with things such as making savings in customer support. Will it end up costing more to win back customers, than it saved using Mindpearl employees, rather than longer term QF salaried individuals for front line customer support? (ask Boeing whether prioritising saving money rather than prioritising engineering excellence has worked out well for them) As always, hindsight will be revealing, but what it always reveals is that things happen for a reason when you try to look at the bigger picture.
 
My 10:00am flight SYD - MEL tomorrow morning has been cancelled. I was on hold for 30 mins, then told that i can take a 9:15 flight, which is good in that it gets me there but it messes up plans around getting to and from airports. Further the fair for the 9:15 was cheaper when I made the booking and i get no compensation for the changes. I'm still on hold because it was an AMEX booking and they're now trying to get to the right team to make the changes. They did ask me whether i could call AMEX myself - but AMEX closes at 6pm - and even if they were open, i don't fancy waiting 2 hours so that they can make the change.

I have absolutely decided to let my platinum lapse. Qantas will be for targeted reward flights going forward.

The question is, Singapore Air or Velocity. How many credit cards can you get and hold points on before doing a transfer....? Do they stop you getting cards based on total CC limit or number of cards?
 
@Scarlett: Quite possibly every word you say might be true. It nevertheless also remains true that in a competitive market if you can't offer service at least close to that of your competitors you're going to be in trouble.

I offer one example. The Qantas travel credit system is bureaucratic, labour intensive and not customer friendly. They each have to be manually processed, and cannot be combined without calling the already overstressed call centres. It is expensive to operate and customers hate it.

By way of conrast, the Virgin travelbank system is fast and flexible, appears to be automated, customers like it, and it must carry far less in overheads.

Obviously it would be folly to hold Mr Joyce personally responsible for everything that happens in his organisation, but something is wrong somewhere.
 
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I'll just add one more point ...

Seems to me covid will have changed the nature of the global airline industry at least for the foreseeable future. We all thought covid would come and go in the space of a year or two, then life would go back to normal.

This clearly isn't happening. Yet airlines like Qantas and others are setting about rebuilding their grandiose networks. We are currently seeing the early consequences of this.

It's my view that it is the slimmed down trimmed ones that will survive.
 
So, what if QF provides customer services the way it currently does, because that’s all it can do right now? I don’t for a minute think any CEO, nor exec team, sets out to piss people off. The opposite is true, they all want to win awards for being worlds best, so why would they take decisions that create angst? Why would they enact policies that annoy people; that antagonise their workforce; that limit the upside for their companies? I believe the simple answer is because they have to. In QF’s case, because there may not be any other better alternatives that keep the company going.

I liked your post, but the way I see it, the fault with Qantas' management, and the CEO, Joyce, is that they have failed to see and plan for the (apparent) avalanche of bookings (which they promoted and agitated for, for months!) and, having failed to anticipate that, also failed to use the Covid 'down period' to make their web site usable to the standard that other major airlines have. If the web site was half useful, the phone debacle would be less.

Also, taking away service people at airports compounds the problem.

These are straight failings of management. Not a deliberate strategy to piss off customers - just lack of ability where it counts.

I do believe the inordinate time to get cash refunds is not accidental, though.

So why? No exec would want to do that, even if it did increase shareholder return, because then they destroy their brand. Instead, I’m sure they’re all trying to tread a very fine line between surviving and maximising profits and they’re doing it in an industry that has always been problematic.

See above.

However, I definitely don’t subscribe to the overly simplistic view that Alan Joyce is an idiot and he and his exec team are out to screw everyone over.

No, just lacking the managerial nous to have staff and systems in place to accommodate the expected increase in demand and failure to invest in their web site.

Anyway, in conclusion, (thanks to the one person still reading at this point…)

That might be me :)
 
This thread is a lollapalooza so is here my two cents...

Yes QF has lost my business but so far only temporarily. We have had a myriad of problems with getting refunds and credits and they have been impossible to deal with. We are still trying to get a refund for a paid business class flight that was cancelled last year. My work travel is mainly domestic and includes a lot of regional, so QF has the frequency and routes I need. In saying that, I am going to Townsville soon and I booked VA inbound and Airnorth outbound. The break of the pandemic has made me reassess whether I need SG status with QF. The flight times suited me and I don't really care about the QF lounge. Time to try something different. Who knows, maybe it will become permanent?

For leisure I have been rusted on to VA for many years now, my partner and I are both WP. We appreciate the extra space and leg room of economy x and their fares more than competitive. We both requalified for WP within a few weeks of our anniversary date with a few business class flights.

I have an upcoming trip to the states and booked with points in business with Qatar and QF. I am worried if I get covid in the states my travel insurance will not get me home in business so I also booked back up flights with points on Singapore Airlines. I booked these flights 8 weeks out from when I may need them and there are no 'carrier' fees. These flights would be next to impossible to booked on QF with points at such short notice. My experience internationally is that Singapore Air and the ME carriers are far superior. I have a few internal flights in the states and normally I would book AA for QF status credits but this time I have booked what suits me, so my flights are a mixed bag of Delta, Southwest, AA and United.

I think QF has been riding their trusted brand for many years now expanding into everything else but flying. The management has lost focus of what QF is really about. Sad really because I really like Qantas as a brand but dislike what they have become.

I will continue to fly QF when I have to, but I am actively seeking out alternatives when they are available.
 
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I have all that but take printed versions of all confirmations as I am more comfortable having backups that do not require batteries (Also, a printed Tripit summary)



Back on topic, today I used the normal number to try to make the changes to the award booking I recently mentioned. 70 odd minute wait before feeding chosen flights to agent, yes they could be done, but at a 30K additional points cost (not 5k) and an increase in +++, not the expected nearly 50% refund. I queried strongly these but they would not budge. After rechecking carefully the route, cabins etc. (correct) I said forget it - cancel the booking outright and ended the call.

A few minutes later I had made a new booking with what I wanted at the expected cost.

Now comes the 8 week wait for the full refund.
How absolutely bloody frustrating for you @serfty.
 
@Scarlett - I never understand why people insist on calling fact based analysis - 'conspiracy theories'? Especially when the facts come from (in this case) Qantas' own filings to the ASX. Perhaps because the results are not what's wanted?

Meanwhile back on your well thought out post - perhaps posit that recent generations have shifted from learning the 3Rs to mastering the 3S'.
Self-absorbed, Self-centred & Selfish.

Overlay this on how too many Senior executives' remuneration is decided by Boards whose own remuneration is decided by 'independent consultants' appointed by, typically, the CEO, CFO or perhaps both.

AJ continued the process commenced by his predecessor (& perhaps aided him with some fun & games at JetStar) - why wait for PE to take you over when you can reap the rewards yourself? Leverage to the hilt, sell & leaseback assets to allow massive share buybacks which artificially increases EPS (which often appears as part of 3 or 4 KPIs for the Senior Execs & Board members).

Then leave the business before it hits the fan. As AJ had planned to do but 'extended'... Coincidentally Q owes the ATO tens of millions in Franking Debits (paid out franking credits, before it had them, for the last share buyback which coincidentally saw KPIs reached - detailed in the notes to the accounts).

But one important aspect is to never fall for the trap of believing your own PR.
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A common example happens year-in-year-out in commercial banking with targets set to earn this year's max bonuses/remuneration. So as the half/year end approaches the 'riskiness' of loans/deals proposed goes up to meet the hurdles. Or with mortgages - the best time to shop around just when the cutoff for new business approaches quarterly...

Yet all throughout a financial institution there is a daisy chain of targets - if one level misses that causes the next level to miss...

So what happens? People jump ship every few years and leave the mess behind. They've banked their bonuses and move on to start the routine again. There is no recourse to the losses they've caused & often as all levels above participated/turned a 'blind eye' - it is just ignored or those remaining sheet home all the 'blame' on those who've left.

Until something extreme, like the GFC or Asian crisis or South American debt crisis wipes out an entire generation or two of financial execs.

Or in Australia's case - wipes out nearly every State bank, or large insurance companies or certain regulatory authorities turn a blind eye for the 'good of the system' every so often. Just which one of the Big 5 institutions failed to meet margin calls in October 1987 I wonder? Or told market participants who they needed to speak to in order for that authority to be able to continue functioning in late 1986, or which bank (no, not that one) was technically insolvent for 5 weeks after the October 1987 crash (& no, not the one that failed to meet multi-hundred million margin calls) & almost outed by opposition leader John Howard in Parliament but Paul Keating called his bluff?

Glad I kept copies.
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With AJ, he is cannot act alone but seemingly with the approval of many Senior execs & majority (at least) of the Board past & present.

After all, his $30+ million pay day a few years ago is non-recourse. The share buybacks have also served their net wealth extremely well - purely coincidental of course.

Shame about Q being cut to (through?) the bone. How exactly is Q going to pay for its fleet replacement, something a ratings agency raised prior to Covid even being a rumour back in Feb 2018?

"Since its financial turnaround in fiscal 2015, Qantas has used surplus capital to fund shareholder returns rather than to grow invested capital. We do not view this as sustainable,"

Then along came Covid and wiped out virtually the entire remaining net tangible assets & subsequent equity raised despite the largesse from the Fed Govt.
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Enhancing customer service in a positive way - don't hold your breath.
 
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It will be interesting to see how QF reacts, having potentially trashed its reputation more broadly than it may have expected with things such as making savings in customer support.
I think the answer to this will never be known, as you rightly pointed out earlier in your well written post that QF will simply manipulate financials to spin the PR story it wants to be told.

I don't think Joyce is an idiot at all, but I also think that this latest saga has reached a point where his position is no longer tenable. When you combine the other recent own goals such as the unbelievably short sighted decision to outsource ramp services (I am still stunned they thought they could do this in the way they did) it all points to a culture of invincibility in an industry that is extremely precarious, even in the good times.
 
I don't know if this is off-topic but, what about in general offering far worse value for money in terms of cost of flights, cost of flights of it's partners and cost of partner redemptions compared to Virgin?

For me that's a much bigger reason. To be clear - what I stipulate is that the value of their offering has drastically declined in the post-covid world - to be far worse than any possible competitor.

In my view, Qantas as a premium airline still offered very good value pre-pandemic, and actually was becoming more and more competetive. Now it looks to me like they don't feel any need to compete at all.
 
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