General COVID-19 Vaccine Discussion

Lynda2475

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Yes But 32 out of 36 were double vaxxed which is the point that the CHO failed to make (Or did not want to make)
Again its a pandemic of the vaccinated. Or are we saying 2 jabs is not considered vaccinated. I dont think the CHO or the Govt is brave enough to make that argument - yet.

IMO opinion it is more pertinent to know for those vaccinated deaths what portion died with Covid but with primary cause was another pre-existing condition ?

If otherwise perfectly healthy fully vaccinated young people are dying solely from covid, then there may be pause for concern.

If its fully vaccinated people who die from a drug overdose or because they had terminal cancer or needed an organ transplant and just also happened to have covid, then less cause for concern because covid wasn't the real cause.

On multiple threads you argue that because most people have done the right thing and gotten vaccinated (and yes anyone 6 months post second dose should be considered unvaccinated if they haven't had a booster), that it matters not if there are unvaccinated people.

I disagree personally, other people doing the right thing should not exempt anyone who is medically eligible from also doing their part.

We know smoking causes a myriad of health issues, but there will always be a small number of exceptions who smoke and suffer none of those diseases. That doesn't invalidate us restricting access to cigarettes and limiting where people can smoke for the benefit of the majority of the population who dont smoke.

Can we all say all together now "Pandemic of the Vaccinated"

Nope, It is not just a pandemic of the vaccinated, 50% of those in ICU are unvaccinated.

The hundreds of thousands of positives who suffer nothing more than a couple of days of a runny nose, scratchy throat or fever or indeed no symptoms at all, show that vaccinations still fulfilling their primary function of preventing serious illness.
 
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other people doing the right thing should not exempt anyone who is medically eligible from also doing their part
I totally agree that everyone should do their part - public health requires a individual response for the common good.
But again I think we should be transparent about the facts. The current facts are that the unvaccinated pose no more risk to the public than the vaccinated.
And, if we are to say the unvaccinated are clogging up the health system, then we better define "vaccinated". Is it the act of getting x number of jabs? If so what is x? Is it the act of getting jabbed that puts the jabbed into the correct social group? -because a lot of commentary here seems to suggest that?. If so I would suggest that is not the correct definition of vaccinated.

Vaccinated means immunised - at the moment there is no way of knowing the degree of immunisation and the degree to which it is protective. We know that it has excellent protection on a population basis, but we cannot say for the individual what that level of protection is before they become infected.
The 32 who died had 2 injections, but they were obviously not immunised and based on the % were most likely infected by a vaccinated person. Being jabbed does not mean immunised or vaccinated. I have had 3 jabs. Am I immunised? I don't know - the numerous studies suggest that I am but I don't know. So which camp should I be in?

And what about the people who were unvaccinated but got Covid. They like the vaccinated would have got some immunity, and some studies suggest their immunity also tend to wane like the vaccinated (jury still out on that). A thought - If their degree of immunity at any point in time is the same as the 2 or 3 jab, why are they to be treated differently. Is it because they refuse to tow the line?.

What has not been studied is the benefit of going from 95 to 100% vaccination rate for Sars-Cov-2. I don't think there is any study on any mass vaccination program that suggests pushing for 100% makes a significant difference.


It is not just a pandemic of the vaccinated, 50% of those in ICU are unvaccinated
That just indicates that vaccinations work (to an extent) in preventing severe illness. Pandemics are also about transimission, not just number of ICU patients.
 
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Lynda2475

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The current facts are that the unvaccinated pose no more risk to the public than the vaccinated.

I'm not sure this is a given, several media reports say that an unvaccinated people with covid tend to have higher viral loads than vaccinated and so the R rate for unvaccinated is higher, meaning they infect more people.

The 32 who died had 2 injections, but they were obviously not immunised and based on the % were most likely infected by a vaccinated person

Again without knowing the actual cause of death (it is not a given it was due covid, just that they had covid) this claim cant be substantiated.

Chances are a good deal of them were immunocompromised and not a good indication fo the protection afforded to most. And other people just never generate good immunity from any vaccine.

You also have no way to confirm if they were infected by a vaccinated or unvaccinated person if they have been out in public at all. This can only be assumed if they caught covid whilst already in hospital in a ward where only other vaccinated people work/visit/are admitted.

That just indicates that vaccinations work (to an extent) in preventing severe illness. Pandemics are also about transimission, not just number of ICU patients.

Transmission in and of itself is not necessarily a worry, ICU and hospitalizations numbers are what matters because that is what burdens our health systems. We should be beyond worrying about the number of positive test results.

If all the unvaccinated patient numbers were deducted from the hospitalization and ICU numbers (say from 3 months after their cohort became eligible), and then re-added at the lower rate that vaccinated patients get admitted, there would be less clogging happening.

The high rate of vaccination, means the unvaccinated pool is small, but given 50% of ICU are unvaccinated then the rate of serious illness is much higher in the unvaccinated.

If for example we assume 92% of 16+ are vaccinated and from that pool 100 people are in ICU, then that is much better than the other 100 people in ICU from a pool of only 8% of the population.
 
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several media reports say that an unvaccinated people with covid tend to have higher viral loads than vaccinated
Im not so sure about media reports. This paper suggests otherwise

Again without knowing the actual cause of death
Corridor discussions with ICU colleague suggests they all died of Covid. I don't have actual data though.

Chances are a good deal of them were immunocompromised
My point exactly - How would anyone in the community know their jabs were not effective? - (other than the ones who know they were more at risk due to "coexisting medical conditions". But we do say they are "vaccinated" - because they had "2 jabs" not because their immunity has been assessed. To what extent are they immunocompromised?

You also have no way to confirm if they were infected by a vaccinated or unvaccinated person if they have been out in public at all
No we can't exactly
But if 95% of the eligible population have had 2 jabs and therefore vaccinated, it stands to reason there is a good change the virus jumped from a vaccinated person. I cannot imagine that large swathes of the populaton have been infected by only the unvaccinated.

Transmission in and of itself is not necessarily a worry
Yes - because most of the transmission that occurs will only result in Positive cases not necessarily positive and hospitalised cases. However, the transmission still occurs despite vaccination. The point again is that vaccination does not prevent transmission and we can't be in lockdown forever.

there would be less clogging happening
That is true to an extent. I only say that because i don't have the very latest hopsitalisation vaccinated rate data for the Omicron wave.
My point again is that there are a lot of lifestyle inflicted hospital admission other than CovidNoVax and my question is "Where do we draw the line" on socially acceptable behaviour that limits the amount of lifestyle inflicted hospital admissions. Beware there are many facets to this....
 
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Lynda2475

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To what extent are they immunocompromised?

Well if you suffer from RA or other condition which knowingly impacts immune response, better to assume your vaccination is less effective than in a healthy person.

It would be great to actually be able to get a blood test to confirm sufficient immunity the way you can with other viruses like Hep B, but no one seems to have landed on an agreed measurement or be offering anything other detecting if you have any (not necessarily adequate) antibodies.

But if 95% of the eligible population have had 2 jabs and therefore vaccinated

As stated previously i don't consider 2 jabs fully vaccinated unless than 2nd jab was less than 5 months ago; wait and see the government change the definition as is occurring overseas.

The chances of coming into contact with an unvaccinated person given they are excluded from only some venues is still reasonably high, more so if you go to places that children go to since under 5s cant get vaccinated, only about 15% of 5-11s have had 1 doses (less than 2 weeks ago) and the 11-15 double dose rate has stalled below 80%. So the risk is larger than the 6% of 16+ who are unvaccinated.
 
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but no one seems to have landed on an agreed measurement

Correct and thats a issue but yet all Australian jurisdictions say 2jabs = fully vaccinated
There are also healthy people with no comorbidities who just don't seroconvert to jabs. Seroconversion is not guaranteed. Hep B is one.

How much of an issue is it?. Its hard to say. Maybe some testing can be done for a select group of people. Then to what extent is that correlated to actual degree of protection. I dont know the answer. Perhaps we will know the answer when its all done and dusted.

i don't consider 2 jabs fully vaccinated
Maybe so, but all Australian jurisdictions currently say yes.

So the risk is larger than the 6% of 16+ who are unvaccinated.
Certainly that would be true but it would not be 95%
 

wandering_fred

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There are now well documented OTC medicines which at worst slow the progression of viral infections including covid. No one should now be sent home with "let's see what happens".
RA diagnosed people are a different issue. The next rheumatologist appointment will have a request to discontinue the methotrexate and restart the hydroxychloroquin. A number of my medically trained friends think this would be a "good idea".
Directions are sometimes useful in wandering
Fred

PS I did say OTC in the first case.
 

Pushka

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There are now well documented OTC medicines which at worst slow the progression of viral infections including covid. No one should now be sent home with "let's see what happens".
RA diagnosed people are a different issue. The next rheumatologist appointment will have a request to discontinue the methotrexate and restart the hydroxychloroquin. A number of my medically trained friends think this would be a "good idea".
Directions are sometimes useful in wandering
Fred

PS I did say OTC in the first case.
Ein confusen wandering_fred 🤷‍♀️😂

The renewed interest in Hydroxy (plaquenil) created severe shortages for those who'd been prescribed it for autoimmune issues. It isn't OTC and only specialists and GPs who've prescribed it before can prescribe it now. Thanks Clive
 

wandering_fred

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I added the PS specifically to highlight the OTC referred to the various antihistamines that have now been show to be "effective". Perhaps I should have used the phrase "OTC only in the first case",
Yes I understand the prescription limitations now in place. The point was to establish that even for some serious immune related diseases there are (perhaps more interesting) alternatives that (might/should) be discussed with the physician.

Transparency makes easier wandering
Fred

PS Pity the government seems to not understand transparency
 
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Two doses are likely good enough. Yes boosters help but it's clear that the standard two dose regimen effectively eliminates most of the risk from COVID. Don't get me wrong, I got my booster back in early November, and will likely get my 4th dose in March or whenever Novavax is being administered (I refuse to get AstraZeneca or Pfizer now that I got those).

And it has been mentioned by at least two CHOs that none of the ICU patients in Australia were tripple dosed.
It would be interesting to see what vaccine they got. Was it AstraZeneca, Pfizer or Moderna? Did they receive two doses of the same vaccine or was it a mix? Did they receive them in short succession or were they spaced out? A lot of folks are focusing on the high level numbers and not the details and nuance that likely matters here.

My general approach when it comes to the vaccine is to always choose a different vaccine technology at each point I can get vaccinated and try to spread out the vaccines too. Thus far I got vector (two doses of AZ as prime doses), mRNA (one dose of Pfizer as booster). I will likely get the protein vaccine next (Novavax). My thinking (and confirmed by other reports) is by exposing my immune system to a different technology each time I get vaccinated it will develop a more comprehensive immune response than had I done what others had done (e.g. 3 doses of Pfizer). Spacing out vaccines has also been shown to do things. First, it allows the immune system to mount a more robust immune response and second, it may reduce your risk of developing myocarditis and other complications since you aren't overwhelming your body at once. Indeed, this was one of the reasons I chose AstraZeneca over Pfizer when I was eligible to get vaccinated back in April, as the Department of Health only had that 12 week spacing guidance for the AstraZeneca vaccine. One final thought about vaccines, get them as soon as you're eligible. I got mine in April and that afforded me the luxury to space out my second dose to the recommended 12 week interval for AZ. It also meant that I got my booster in early November about 4 months after the 2nd dose (so likely no risk for myocarditis) and fortunately giving me enough time to build an immune response before Omicron took hold in the state.
Unfortunately today NSW reported deaths in boosted people, I expect those people had underlying conditions but Dr Chant wont state that due to privacy, however I think they can safely divulge whether deaths were from covid only (no underlying conditions) vs with covid (serious comorbidities) without breaching privacy.

From ABC blog today:

Of those that died, 12 were women and 20 were men
  • Three people were in their 40s, three in their 60s, eight in their 70s, 11 in their 80s and seven in their 90s
  • 23 of those who died had had two doses of a vaccine, one had one dose, eight were unvaccinated, and five had had a booster
Dr Chant recognised requests for more information on deaths to better understand underlying health issues, however she said she would not be changing her daily released of information due to confidentiality issues. Instead, she said, she would regularly provide "a little bit more information on the types of conditions people have"
Good to see COVID deaths being broken out by vaccination status but somewhat troubling to see that many were vaccinated. Whilst most of these people were older adults, none of them deserved to go through this cough. I wonder what NSW Health and state health authorities are doing to protect those at risk? Are they being provided with N95 respirators to keep them safe in their nursing home? If they do test positive are they getting treatment right away from COVID where we know early treatment in high risk groups leads to better clinical outcomes?

Agree, whats becoming increasing apparent is that we cannot vaccinate our way out of the pandemic. There is already talk of a 4th dose. Governments all over the world made promises that getting vaccinated would solve everything. The "lets get back to the things we love" advert is a good example.

We've had two years of the pandemic and yet i have not seen any specific CV19 messaging targeting general health / fitness / diet etc, yet we are still bombarded with the same junk food adverts. We know obesity / fitness / general health is a factor in hospitalisations.
The US Army respectfully disagrees with your statement that we cannot vaccinate our way out of the pandemic. They just developed a vaccine that can target all coronaviruses. Yes it still needs to go through further clinical trials but if true this could be our silver bullet out of the pandemic.

I agree though that the messaging on COVID needs to change beside just getting vaccinated. Wearing a good quality mask (e.g. P2 respirator) instead of the silly cloth masks we see, washing your hands regularly, particularly before you eat, practicing social distancing, taking supplements, going outdoors more where COVID cannot survive all play a key role.

Well if you suffer from RA or other condition which knowingly impacts immune response, better to assume your vaccination is less effective than in a healthy person.

It would be great to actually be able to get a blood test to confirm sufficient immunity the way you can with other viruses like Hep B, but no one seems to have landed on an agreed measurement or be offering anything other detecting if you have any (not necessarily adequate) antibodies.



As stated previously i don't consider 2 jabs fully vaccinated unless than 2nd jab was less than 5 months ago; wait and see the government change the definition as is occurring overseas.

The chances of coming into contact with an unvaccinated person given they are excluded from only some venues is still reasonably high, more so if you go to places that children go to since under 5s cant get vaccinated, only about 15% of 5-11s have had 1 doses (less than 2 weeks ago) and the 11-15 double dose rate has stalled below 80%. So the risk is larger than the 6% of 16+ who are unvaccinated.
I think we can all agree that different people in the community will have different risk factors and acceptance of risk. What is crucial is that we all make those determinations rather than living in fear all the time. One of the things I won't get over is the dumb stay-at-home orders that took effect on June 26th, 2021, the day I received my second dose of AstraZeneca. I was no risk to the community at that point and had a great deal of protection against Delta but was imprisoned in my home. Ever since those orders disappeared I got onto the travel websites and booked travel I have missed ever since the start of this dumb pandemic.

But don't get me wrong, I am a high risk patient (auto-immune disease taking immunosuppressants), if I get COVID it could very well be game over for me. What is different is I've put as many layers of protection as possible between me and COVID whilst living my life normally. If I'm in an enclosed space for a prolonged time, the P2 respirator and safety glasses go on. I practice social distancing, choosing times where I suspect fewer people will be where I am (when possible). I board planes at the very last minute to avoid gate lice and usually am seated in J or in the first row if JQ to again limit the bad air I'm breathing in. In terms of risk, it's hard to say what activities put us at more risk for COVID than others. Interestingly most of the COVID-19 exposure warnings I've received so far have been from supermarkets and not the cafes I work at for hours on end outdoors. Staying outdoors is one of the main weapons I have against COVID since again you can't get COVID outdoors

There are now well documented OTC medicines which at worst slow the progression of viral infections including covid. No one should now be sent home with "let's see what happens".
RA diagnosed people are a different issue. The next rheumatologist appointment will have a request to discontinue the methotrexate and restart the hydroxychloroquin. A number of my medically trained friends think this would be a "good idea".
Directions are sometimes useful in wandering
Fred

PS I did say OTC in the first case.
As someone who is allergic to over two dozen things and takes antihistamines (and immunosuppressants) year round but still gets the occasional runny nose, I can tell you that at this point with COVID being as endemic as it is now I'm leaving little to chance now. I'm taking a rapid antigen test once a week regardless of symptoms. Partly to protect others I work with but mainly to protect myself since again, for those in a high risk group the quicker you spot COVID the quicker you can get treatment and avoid the nasty consequences of it.

-RooFlyer88
 

Pushka

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As someone who is allergic to over two dozen things and takes antihistamines (and immunosuppressants) year round but still gets the occasional runny nose, I can tell you that at this point with COVID being as endemic as it is now I'm leaving little to chance now. I'm taking a rapid antigen test once a week regardless of symptoms. Partly to protect others I work with but mainly to protect myself since again, for those in a high risk group the quicker you spot COVID the quicker you can get treatment and avoid the nasty consequences of it.

Curious to know, other than the usual hydration and pain killers, which treatment you believe is important to take in the very early stages. From someone also immunocompromised.
 

Lynda2475

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It would be interesting to see what vaccine they got. Was it AstraZeneca, Pfizer or Moderna? Did they receive two doses of the same vaccine or was it a mix? Did they receive them in short succession or were they spaced out? A lot of folks are focusing on the high level numbers and not the details and nuance that likely matters here.

The more pertinent details are what their underlying conditions / comorbidities were. If people have a compromised immune system (cancer patient, autoimmune diseas like RA) or were otherwise signifiantly unwell, no vaccine was likley to generate a material immune reposne. Plus dont forget the death numbers include people who died with covid not just from covid.

One of the things I won't get over is the dumb stay-at-home orders that took effect on June 26th, 2021, the day I received my second dose of AstraZeneca. I was no risk to the community at that point and had a great deal of protection against Delta but was imprisoned in my home.

Well no, it takes about 2 weeks for your body to generate an effective immune repsonse post jab, so the day you had the 2nd shot you were not yet fully protected.

Good to see COVID deaths being broken out by vaccination status

This has been happening for 12 months now in NSW, its not new. Need to ask why other states/territories dont publish the same data weekly?
 

Lynda2475

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Saw a tv segment on using heparin as a nasal spray to prevent covid transmission a couple of months ago on the ABC, there is now going to be a larger trial in NSW and Vic.

SMH reports:

Co-author Professor Clive Page, from King’s College London, who is co-leading the global studies, said inhaled heparin had antiviral properties “which work by binding to the spike proteins the coronavirus uses to enter the cells of the body.”

Inhaled heparin effectively stops the virus infecting cells in the lungs and could also stop people from getting the virus from others,” Professor Page said.


 
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All the hand-washing in the world won't help you if you believe that.
Can you point to a single study that has shown that COVID can be transmitted in an outdoor environment? Yeah I guess if people are really close to each other for hours on end then maybe there is a risk but even then I would argue that's still safer than indoors with 2 sq m distancing. What we know about Omicron now is it loves hanging around in the air so the only thing that can really make a difference is being outdoors.

-RooFlyer88
 

drron

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An interesting talk from a member of the Israeli vaccine advisory group.
Professor Cyrille Cohen is head of Immunology at Bar Ilan University and a member of the advisory committee for vaccines for the Israeli Government. In a wide-ranging and forthright interview, the Professor tells Freddie Sayers:

  • The Green Pass / vaccine passport concept is no longer relevant in the Omicron era and should be phased out (he expects it to be in short order in Israel)
  • He and his colleagues were surprised and disappointed that the vaccines did not prevent transmission, as they had originally hoped
  • The biggest mistake of the pandemic in Israel was closing schools and education
  • Widespread infection is now an inevitable part of future immunity — otherwise known as herd immunity
  • Omicron has accelerated the pandemic into the endemic phase, in which Covid will be “like flu”
 

lovetravellingoz

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  • Omicron has accelerated the pandemic into the endemic phase, in which Covid will be “like flu”

Though his answer was more complex than that suggests,:

I don't Covid 19 is going to disappear from our lives in the years to come. I think it is going to become I think it’s going to be like flu, I think there is going to be bad waves and better waves, with a better immunity at the level of the population, with better vaccines with better treatment. In that sense, and I’m extremely cautious, there is a possibility that Omicron will accelerate that transition.
 

ethernet

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John Cambell of Youtube fame - well there are provisional UK figures that are unkind to AZ and Omicron. Is the acid test serious/ICU, moderate, or just transmissible? I believe serious or death is well covered if vaccinated. Both WA and China are on elimination strategy. And US is saying don't go to Spain which has higher vaccination rates than Au. The funny thing about USA is they had their shots early, so there just might be a U or double Bell curve for resistance levels. I wonder if long term vaccine hamsters/ GM ACE2 mice are being monitored for effects over time? My gut feeling is those >80-85 and or with co-mortality are the priority , adjusted for new treatment/drugs that we did not have before. It remains to be seen if nursing homes and the like have lifted their game.
 

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