Finnair Fiasco

[Quickstatus]

however - as you were leaving the EU, and as the flight was over 6 hours delayed, you will have 600 euros compensation coming your way. That will cover the cost of your chang of flight on QF.

how do you action EU261 to make sure it actually comes your way?. I know the airline is the first point of contact


While this may seem as a "Fiasco", it actually happens more commonly than we think. Lots of people travel on more than 1 ticket, and even across different alliances. It is at this point that you see how deep the "alliance" actually is and how helpful the airline actually is.

I would think you should be able to get the 80k points for upgrade back?

 

[OATEK]

The Finnair option is a great money saver if all goes well. I booked the whole EUR journey with them from Sydney, just in case something like this happened, so felt I was well covered. When looking at some fares with them the other day, I noticed for some of their cheapest fares, Finnair was showing the inbound/outbound leg with QF flight numbers, and then onwards with AY numbers. When I flew with them last, it was all AY numbers including CX/QF metal. I wonder if he mix of flight numbers showing those of the actual carrier rather than the ticketing carrier change any of the options in case of a significant delay.

 

[Quickstatus]

The Finnair option is a great money saver if all goes well. I booked the whole EUR journey with them from Sydney, just in case something like this happened, so felt I was well covered. When looking at some fares with them the other day, I noticed for some of their cheapest fares, Finnair was showing the inbound/outbound leg with QF flight numbers, and then onwards with AY numbers. When I flew with them last, it was all AY numbers including CX/QF metal. I wonder if he mix of flight numbers showing those of the actual carrier rather than the ticketing carrier change any of the options in case of a significant delay.

Its on the one ticket so theoretically you should get assistance for misconnections.
The FF points and SC may change and the squiggle counter does not work on no QF.
Based on what someone said about an EK flight marketed by QF I would prefer the actual flights on the ticket rather than the marketing flight in case of airline stuffup.

codeshares just gives an airline the look of global reach when they could just be a backyard operation.

 

[clifford]

Yes, the best laid plans... I've just returned to Australia following a trip to Europe on AY J class BKK-HEL-CPH-HEL-BKK. The Finnair part of the trip worked flawlessly, with each flight either being on time or early. I had allowed one or two days connect time in BKK both ways, though this turned out to be unnecessary. Luck of the draw, I suppose.

However, this was the least of my problems. I had booked cheapish Ryanair flights (which are usually quite punctual) to fly CPH-BLQ, PIS-LPL, MAN-CRL and CRL-CPH. Leaving at least one night between flights, I thought the itinerary was quite conservative. What I didn't bargain for was the terrorist attacks in Belgium. While CRL wasn't really affected (an hour's drive from Brussels), my flight to CRL was scheduled for 23 March and I didn't want to take the risk of flying to that part of the world and getting caught up in the aftermath, as I absolutely had to be at CPH on 24 March to connect with the return to BKK on AY.

So, I decided to forego the prepaid flights MAN-CRL-CPH and the overnight accommodation at CRL, and book an alternative trip from the UK to CPH. I ended up booking a UA FF ticket LHR-OSL-CPH, which operated flawlessly. In addition, I had to buy train tickets MAN-LHR, but the peace of mind it brought was certainly worth the extra cost. I could probably claim some of the extra cost from my TI, but it isn't a lot and I really can't be bothered with all the hassle that will be involved. Just to show you really can't plan for all contingencies, no matter how hard you try.

I have another trip to Europe ticketed for May, with a connection in BKK to UL business class to CDG. The insurance (in addition to a formal policy) I have so far is a business class award on SQ MEL-SIN-BKK, with a backup on JQ MEL-BKK if necessary, which I am quite prepared to throw away. Of course this may not be sufficient, but hopefully will be...

 

[Quickstatus]

I have another trip to Europe ticketed for May, with a connection in BKK to UL business class to CDG. The insurance (in addition to a formal policy) I have so far is a business class award on SQ MEL-SIN-BKK, with a backup on JQ MEL-BKK if necessary, which I am quite prepared to throw away. Of course this may not be sufficient, but hopefully will be...

i must be slow tonight ,, why the SQ and JQ backups?

 

[ozbeachbabe]

Were you already checked in for that QF flight before the?? (ie had your BP been issued and luggage ticketed through?)

While I think you did the correct thing in calling - in some sense they have just treated it as a unilateral change of the QF ticket (and charged you a fee - presumably change and fare difference)

If say instead you had been unable to contact them and arrived in BKK at 3am I wonder if the situation would have been different
- option 1 - they would have protected you as the flight landed late by the OW 'agreement'
- option 2 - missed flight cancelled ticket, buy a new one

I have done a few similar connections leaving 8-10hrs and been OK, but do it knowing it is a potential risk.

Yep, I was all ticketed through with boarding passes supplied. That's also why they had to redirect all my luggage next day( they still had it)

Qantas told me it was just as well I called them. If I had just arrived at BKK there wouldn't have been anyone there to help me and I would have been classed as 'no show' and would have needed to book completely new ticket.

I booked using my 28 degrees card but did have Southern Cross TI. Haven't had a chance to look properly...still travelling.

As an aside, the check in guy in Amsterdam told me he couldn't check my luggage all the way through as it was a separate ticket, but I argued my case and he managed it.

Qantas check in guy at Adelaide on my outbound flight was absolutely brilliant and very knowledgable.

It wouldn't have been the same situation as being booked and not checked in and as such a no-show because QF would've been able to see you were a through checked pax who misconnected as they'd see your inbound AY flight in your checkin record so they would've have to offload you and any other connecting pax from that flight however it is the inbound carrier who is responsible for reaccommodating you as it was their delay which resulted in you missing your connecting flight plus they checked you both in for all flights and tagged the bag to your final destination.

I'm quite confident that had the delay occurred in the reverse direction you would have been taken care of.

Events like these are stressful at the best of times but given the circumstances of your trip it's the last thing you'd want to have happen. Hope you receive the best outcome possible.

 

[SandyS]

So Finnair are trying to avoid paying all the passengers their EU compensation. Here is the reply I suspect they have sent to all passengers. I'm not inclined to accept this but not sure what my chances are of getting the appropriate compensation. I'm not looking to profit from this, I am only looking to get fair compensation for all the stress etc.

As well as the fault that caused the delay, many of the entertainment systems were not working that day either, the engineers said it would take time to fix. It was working when we actually took off 24 hours later on the same plane. Would you accept this offer?


I apologise for the delay of your Helsinki Bangkok flight and for all of the inconvenience this has caused you. Finnair ensures passengers' safe flight with all possible foreseeable measures that can reasonably be required. Our aircraft's condition is constantly monitored. However, there are defects and circumstances that are beyond our actual control since they cannot be foreseen or prevented due to their nature or origin. Finnair is investigating the reason for flight delay AY089 from Helsinki to Bangkok. In this case fuel quantity indicator was broken after refuelling aircraft for this flight. This aircraft is one of our newest Airbus A350, 5 months old, so this failure has been most probably caused by a mistake in manufacturing or design/engineering process. Flight was operated as soon as replacement aircraft was available. Although Finnair considers this as extraordinary circumstance and compensation will not be paid, we would like to offer you a mutual 400 euro Finnair gift voucher as a settlement. It can be used to pay for Finnair flights. The gift voucher is not personal, meaning that you can give it to someone else or use it to pay for several passengers' flights. The gift voucher is valid for one year and the actual flight date may be within one year from the booking date. The settlement offer is valid for 2 weeks. We will send you the gift voucher if you accept it as a settlement in this matter. Unfortunately we are unable to take responsibility of the flights that are booked on a separate ticket. I hope that your travel insurance will cover the costs. I hope we can offer you pleasant flight experiences in the future.

 

[medhead]

I guess the first question is what happens when they investigate and find it isn't a design mistake? I find it difficult to accept that a design mistake where refuelling breaks the fuel sensor hasn't already been picked up with correction notice sent. Can this be checked with Airbus, some how?
Correcting a notified defect would be within their control? Also within their control to make sure correct refuelling procedure was followed.

Maybe you could reply and ask whether Finnair has been notified of an issue related to the fuel quality indicator by Airbus. Also to outline how they have verified that the correct refuelling procedure was followed. Could also push the issue and say that settlement of your claim is dependent on the findings of their investigation. Also that the voucher can only be an ex-gratia offer by Finnair, not a settlement

 

[Danger]

So Finnair are trying to avoid paying all the passengers their EU compensation. Here is the reply I suspect they have sent to all passengers. I'm not inclined to accept this but not sure what my chances are of getting the appropriate compensation. I'm not looking to profit from this, I am only looking to get fair compensation for all the stress etc.

As well as the fault that caused the delay, many of the entertainment systems were not working that day either, the engineers said it would take time to fix. It was working when we actually took off 24 hours later on the same plane. Would you accept this offer?


I apologise for the delay of your Helsinki Bangkok flight and for all of the inconvenience this has caused you. Finnair ensures passengers' safe flight with all possible foreseeable measures that can reasonably be required. Our aircraft's condition is constantly monitored. However, there are defects and circumstances that are beyond our actual control since they cannot be foreseen or prevented due to their nature or origin. Finnair is investigating the reason for flight delay AY089 from Helsinki to Bangkok. In this case fuel quantity indicator was broken after refuelling aircraft for this flight. This aircraft is one of our newest Airbus A350, 5 months old, so this failure has been most probably caused by a mistake in manufacturing or design/engineering process. Flight was operated as soon as replacement aircraft was available. Although Finnair considers this as extraordinary circumstance and compensation will not be paid, we would like to offer you a mutual 400 euro Finnair gift voucher as a settlement. It can be used to pay for Finnair flights. The gift voucher is not personal, meaning that you can give it to someone else or use it to pay for several passengers' flights. The gift voucher is valid for one year and the actual flight date may be within one year from the booking date. The settlement offer is valid for 2 weeks. We will send you the gift voucher if you accept it as a settlement in this matter. Unfortunately we are unable to take responsibility of the flights that are booked on a separate ticket. I hope that your travel insurance will cover the costs. I hope we can offer you pleasant flight experiences in the future.

". . . probably caused by a mistake in manufacturing or design/engineering process".

I'd be flicking that straight to Airbus.

 

[flying_double]

It really depends how far you want to fight it and how much noise you can make. They're relying on an 'extraordinary circumstance' carve out to the EU regulation. Is an aircraft technical issue an extraordinary circumstance? They'll argue it was because the plane is relatively new and has been maintained according to the standard maintenance program, blaming it on an Airbus defect, and therefore outside of its control. However there was at least one court case in the UK a few years ago that ruled that unforeseen technical issues and an airline's obligation to resolve them were a standard part of business and that they don't give rise to an extraordinary circumstance (FWIW, I agree with this approach).

The problem for you is that it's up to the airline to apply its interpretation of the circumstances and the EU regulation in the first instance. They may be relying on it not being worth your time or money taking up the fight with lawyers in a Finnish court. And then even if you took it to court, there's still no guarantee of success. If I was in your shoes, I wouldn't be happy with a 400 Euro Finnair voucher and probably wouldn't want to fly Finnair again given their response to the issue, rendering the voucher useless. If you do accept the voucher, you could try to sell it on ebay. I'm not encouraging you to do this, but it could be an option to consider if Finnair refuses to play ball with cash compensation for the delay.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

It really depends how far you want to fight it and how much noise you can make. They're relying on an 'extraordinary circumstance' carve out to the EU regulation. Is an aircraft technical issue an extraordinary circumstance? They'll argue it was because the plane is relatively new and has been maintained according to the standard maintenance program, blaming it on an Airbus defect, and therefore outside of its control. However there was at least one court case in the UK a few years ago that ruled that unforeseen technical issues and an airline's obligation to resolve them were a standard part of business and that they don't give rise to an extraordinary circumstance (FWIW, I agree with this approach).

The problem for you is that it's up to the airline to apply its interpretation of the circumstances and the EU regulation in the first instance. They may be relying on it not being worth your time or money taking up the fight with lawyers in a Finnish court. And then even if you took it to court, there's still no guarantee of success. If I was in your shoes, I wouldn't be happy with a 400 Euro Finnair voucher and probably wouldn't want to fly Finnair again given their response to the issue, rendering the voucher useless. If you do accept the voucher, you could try to sell it on ebay. I'm not encouraging you to do this, but it could be an option to consider if Finnair refuses to play ball with cash compensation for the delay.

Don't necessarily have to take it to court - you can use one of those recovery agents. They take a 33% cut, and will pursue it if they feel it is worthwhile. If they don't take it on, probably best to let it go.

Probably the 'two week acceptance' period is set by Finnair precisely so that you don't have time to go to one of those recovery agents, get rejected, then take their measly E400 voucher.

On the broader issue - you are correct. Maintenance and repairs are considered 'routine'. I'm not even entirely sure if a manufacturing defect is automatically deemed 'extraordinary' at the moment - I know the proposed new regulations had something in them that an inherent defect (by the manufacturer) would = extraordinary. Have those come into effect yet?

 

[medhead]

Don't necessarily have to take it to court - you can use one of those recovery agents. They take a 33% cut, and will pursue it if they feel it is worthwhile. If they don't take it on, probably best to let it go.

Probably the 'two week acceptance' period is set by Finnair precisely so that you don't have time to go to one of those recovery agents, get rejected, then take their measly E400 voucher.

On the broader issue - you are correct. Maintenance and repairs are considered 'routine'. I'm not even entirely sure if a manufacturing defect is automatically deemed 'extraordinary' at the moment - I know the proposed new regulations had something in them that an inherent defect (by the manufacturer) would = extraordinary. Have those come into effect yet?

I still say that if the manufacturer has told the airline about a manufacturing defect, i.e. by those official notice things they use. The such defect is no longer extraordinary, it's back in airline control to fix and manage the risk if they don't fix.

 

[Quickstatus]

Food for thought:

Airline finally pays passenger $680 in delayed flight compensation after court threatens to impound plane

 

[SandyS]

This is the reply I received from Finnair.

According to the latest information that I just received, the Airbus has noticed weakness in fuel system and it has made improvements to prevent this kind of failure. That still does not change the fact that there will be no money compensation. Best regards Finnair Plc Customer Relations

 

[serfty]

You can ask for proof - it is up to the Airline to prove this is the case.

Finnair seem to have a habit of giving the finger to EU261/2004 - see this FT thread:

Finnair and EU 261 compensation - FlyerTalk Forums

It seems that unless you go via the "kuluttajariitalautakunta" - difficult - or see if one of those Legal firms that will claim on your behalf (taking 30%) would accept your case, you would have to remain with what your TI provides.

 

[Danger]

What a bunch of tossers Finnair is proving to be.

Here's another mob that do the hard work for you and take a cut: www.flightright.co.uk.

 

[SandyS]

Thanks for the links. I will probably go with one of these companies as Finnair are definitely trying it on. They told me that they don't give out technical info to passengers and other such fob offs.

I will pursue this as they didn't even offer me an alternative flight at the time, which I think they are at least obliged to look for (though I'm no lawyer).

 

[SandyS]

UPDATE

Flightright told me that they cannot fight the case because they have no legal representation in Finland. My flight actually originated in Amsterdam but because there was an overnight in Helsinki, it doesn't count as a connecting flight, so I cannot fight the case in the Netherlands, where Flightright do have legal representation.

This was not a stopover as such. When I purchased my return flight, there were 2 flight options but one involved a 90 minute transfer and even although it was all on one ticket, I just didn't want to risk a missed connection, so opted for the longer connection. So Finnair get away with it.

 

[knasty]

I have used EUclaim with success against BA who acted just like Finnair.

 

[SandyS]

I have used EUclaim with success against BA who acted just like Finnair.

Thanks, I may have one last try since I already have all the documentation ready to send on.