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Ethiopian 737 Max 8 crash and Fallout

jakeseven7

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True. But alternatively people steadfastly refuse to fly Garuda because of perceived safety issues. Or anyone of half a dozen other carriers. Often one of the first questions people will ask when they get told of a cheap airfare is ‘but are they safe?’

Aviation is one of those peculiar things that people get ideas stuck in their head regardless of how irrational they might be (and that works both ways in aviation). Yet they will drive to the airport, speed when they drive, or hire motorcycles in Bali.
This is very true, Garuda might as well be called ‘Danger Airline’ in Australia it is that synonymous with not being safe. I think the MAX could end up sticking badly as well.
 

OATEK

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While the 787 battery issue was not as dramatic as the MAX8 crashes, I know quite a few regular travellers who were determined to avoid them at the time. One couple had the women in tears when the male decided to book & not tell her to the last minute. She flew but was shaking when she got on the plane. But after a couple of years there was rarely a mention of the subject amongst the same group - these things pass just like fear of the DC10s for a few years after their crashes.
 

woodborer

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The 60 minutes program tonight did not portray Boeing in a +ve light...who would fly the 737 Max moving forwards regardless of what Beoeing and the FAA say?
There was an interesting comment in the program that they relied on a single sensor as using two would have required simulator training. I wonder if that reason is correct?
 

jb747

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There was an interesting comment in the program that they relied on a single sensor as using two would have required simulator training. I wonder if that reason is correct?
I presume that the logic would have been that if two were used, there would now be a scenario where the MCAS would not activate....and they'd have to train for that.

Fairly simply really...don't stall the aircraft. Done.
 

jb747

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While the 787 battery issue was not as dramatic as the MAX8 crashes, I know quite a few regular travellers who were determined to avoid them at the time. One couple had the women in tears when the male decided to book & not tell her to the last minute. She flew but was shaking when she got on the plane. But after a couple of years there was rarely a mention of the subject amongst the same group - these things pass just like fear of the DC10s for a few years after their crashes.
I think they were lucky with the battery fires. How would the public feel about the 787 if a couple had done an over the ocean disappearing act. As they were flying with very lengthy ETOPs, very early in the piece, an electrical fire out in the middle of nowhere was not a low probability item.
 

p--and--t

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I am not disagreeing that Boeing got it very wrong just that many people have short memories and also have no real idea of what a/c they are flying in. This might take a while but I really believe that things will return to 'normal' after a while and this whole episode will be forgotten by the general population.
Ask the average punter if they are flying in an A320 or a B737 and most will have no idea which type let alone between models of a particular type.
Agreed

The contributors to AFF are a specific breed and a very small percentage of the population.

There will be tearoom chatter for a few weeks until the media stop reporting it on the first few pages.

If I asked the majority of my acquaintances, they do not recall whether the plane they last flew on was a Boeing or an Airbus unless they took a look at the safety card during takeoff procedure. (most don't unless forced to in the exit row)

They do not recall whether the plane had 2 or 4 engines.

They do usually remember if it was a 747 or an A380 (because they saw stairs).


Edit: I do agree that airlines or regions get reputations with the general public that tend to stick - particularly anything Indonesian, anything Russian and anything "African".
 
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This is one of those things where we will just have to wait and see. Back in the day of the DC-10 we didn't have social media the way we do now. While Garuda is still on the 'no fly' list for many, MH is not (although it is still siffering in China to some degree).

I’m not sure there’s a playbook for this. And aviation is too different from other products to draw comparisons.
 

p--and--t

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This is one of those things where we will just have to wait and see. Back in the day of the DC-10 we didn't have social media the way we do now. While Garuda is still on the 'no fly' list for many, MH is not (although it is still siffering in China to some degree).

I’m not sure there’s a playbook for this. And aviation is too different from other products to draw comparisons.
I guess we will see in time.

I chatted with a friend a few weeks back who was travelling to Boston and asked him what flights he had.

The extent of his knowledge was the fare amount, departure date, was going Qantas on the first segment (no idea of plane type) and a connecting flight to Boston (no idea of carrier or plane).
 

dajop

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There will be tearoom chatter for a few weeks until the media stop reporting it on the first few pages.

If I asked the majority of my acquaintances, they do not recall whether the plane they last flew on was a Boeing or an Airbus unless they took a look at the safety card during takeoff procedure. (most don't unless forced to in the exit row)
On wildcard is what corporates will do. Whilst individual leisure travellers may easily forget, it may be the corporate aviation advisors that determine its fate. Before FAA stepped in (but after the China decision) the company I work for (US based), implemented a global ban on travel on the aircraft type, and worked with our travel provider to ensure that travellers couldn't book online any sectors flown by the specific aircraft type (in fact they wouldn't even come up in the searches). If other companies are doing the same then that could influence things, probably moreso than any tearoom chatter.
 

p--and--t

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On wildcard is what corporates will do. Whilst individual leisure travellers may easily forget, it may be the corporate aviation advisors that determine its fate. Before FAA stepped in (but after the China decision) the company I work for (US based), implemented a global ban on travel on the aircraft type, and worked with our travel provider to ensure that travellers couldn't book online any sectors flown by the specific aircraft type (in fact they wouldn't even come up in the searches). If other companies are doing the same then that could influence things, probably moreso than any tearoom chatter.
The corporate I worked for with 10's thousands of employees had a policy that extended as far as "the cheapest fare on any carrier in the 1/2 day time slot". (Edit: I only flew domestically with them. Not sure of international policy)
 

straitman

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On wildcard is what corporates will do. Whilst individual leisure travellers may easily forget, it may be the corporate aviation advisors that determine its fate. Before FAA stepped in (but after the China decision) the company I work for (US based), implemented a global ban on travel on the aircraft type, and worked with our travel provider to ensure that travellers couldn't book online any sectors flown by the specific aircraft type (in fact they wouldn't even come up in the searches). If other companies are doing the same then that could influence things, probably moreso than any tearoom chatter.
Having been involved with and part of a large multi national aviation system I can only partly agree. It takes a lot more than two accidents for them to react. They will watch what Boeing and the FAA do then form an opinion. That opinion can only be based on the facts though and not anyones gut feeling. Look at how long the put up with the Super Puma before finally saying enough. Eurocopter were given many opportunities to fix the a/c before the pin was finally pulled. It took a while but now the Super Pumas are still happily trucking along again.

The attached YouTube video shows the processes that happen to ensure the ongoing safety.

Super Puma crash investigation Norway
 

dajop

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Having been involved with and part of a large multi national aviation system I can only partly agree. It takes a lot more than two accidents for them to react. They will watch what Boeing and the FAA do then form an opinion.
The company I worked for reacted swiftly , IIRC, once some European countries instigated the ban. I guess, given that the company leadership is striving to drive strong safety culture, once a western regulator enacted a ban it was difficult ( whatever the FAA may say) to not act.
 

woodborer

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The company I worked for reacted swiftly , IIRC, once some European countries instigated the ban. I guess, given that the company leadership is striving to drive strong safety culture, once a western regulator enacted a ban it was difficult ( whatever the FAA may say) to not act.
If the corporates say no, then the MAXs will find their ways to be the LCCs workhorses, where there is less corporate sway.
 

oz_mark

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I must admit I am surprised they are still building their 53 a/c per month though.
Didn't they drop that to 42?

If they think they will ultimately be delivered, why not. The supply chain is still cranking out, people need to so something. Difficult to manage situation though
 
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...they think they will ultimately be delivered, why not. The supply chain is still cranking out, people need to so something. Difficult to manage situation though
oz_mark, straitman and other AFFers, are these difficulties likely to cause Boeing medium term reputational damage among major and minor airlines worldwide, and swing buyers in favour of Airbus' (or others') aircraft, or do these buyers have a mostly sanguine view because nothing is perfect and new transport equipment usually has problems?

Does difficulty in obtaining aircraft promptly - fat order books - play any part in formulating these attitudes?
 

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