Egyptair Flight MS804 Disappeared from Radar [New conclusion]

[JessicaTam]

Fuel, whilst still contained within the tanks is generally benign. Some forms of it (there are five or six variants of jet fuel in use around the world) are so hard to ignite that you could reasonably safely stand in the middle of a pool of it, and light matches.

But, when converted to an aerosol...then it will burn. As suggested above, very much like diesel.

Those fuel tank fires that have happened, mostly involved almost empty tanks, and some form of heating. Fuel vapour is a different animal. Normally fuel tanks are extremely cold. Concorde had afterburner flame to help the ignition.

This is somewhat heavy reading, but worth the effort http://aerosociety.com/Assets/Docs/...apers/SAFITA Part 1_Reference_3rd Edition.pdf

Interesting that the report goes into a lot of detail about wiring, Lithium batteries, composite materials and other factors relating to smoke/fire, but very little about fuel.

Which is of course your point.

P.S. Yes, heavy reading.

 

[Meggsy]

Interesting that the report goes into a lot of detail about wiring, Lithium batteries, composite materials and other factors relating to smoke/fire, but very little about fuel.

Which is of course your point.

P.S. Yes, heavy reading.

Informative article jb747, thanks for providing the link. We are clearly heading into a new era from an aviation fire safety perspective. With the use of composite fibre material becoming so much more prevalent a number of tried and proven aircraft firefighting techniques may have to change. The number of in flight incidents involving lithium batteries in personal electronic devices is climbing also which is a major concern.
Not an opinion on Egyptair MS804 but I have for many years held the belief that all flight crew must hold a greater level of firefighting technique and knowledge than that they are currently taught. It is a long way/time from 38000 feet to an airfield.

 

[Quickstatus]

That makes perfect sense on one level but if the flight crew have to fight a fire who is flying the aircraft?.

Have there been incidences involving personal equipment Li batteries inflight (non cargo)?

I think there was a AF777 incident involving a small Li battery - will find reference

Yes: Dec 2010 AF681 B772 seat fire : 5V battery fell off a personal device got crushed by seat mechanism and caught fire.
Of course there was the airport rage with a certain actor and a battery hoverboard

 

[Meggsy]

That makes perfect sense on one level but if the flight crew have to fight a fire who is flying the aircraft?.

Have there been incidences involving personal equipment Li batteries?

Ahh yes I should have said all flight and cabin crew.
I am aware of 4 incidents on Australian carriers in the past year or so when ignition has occurred from iPhone, iPad and cameras. Thankfully all were on the ground at the time. This trend is being seen internationally.

 

[Quickstatus]

Ahh yes I should have said all flight and cabin crew.
I am aware of 4 incidents on Australian carriers in the past year or so when ignition has occurred from iPhone, iPad and cameras. Thankfully all were on the ground at the time. This trend is being seen internationally.

Thanks for that do you have weblinks to these incidents?.
Interesting that people have pointed the early finger at nefarious causes but not the ubiquitous Li until maybe now.

we can't carry scissors on board but several lithium batteries are Ok?

 

[Skyring]

Yes: Dec 2010 AF681 B772 seat fire : 5V battery fell off a personal device got crushed by seat mechanism and caught fire.

So that explains the safety briefing update.

Obviously seen as a minor concern, otherwise we'd all be handing in our phones etc. on boarding. A scorched seat, a painful burn, some fumes in the cabin. FAs hot on the scene with fire extinguishers. We're not talking about planekiller fires here.

The onboard systems, such as that 787 fire and hull breach in 2013, are far more serious.

 

[Meggsy]

Thanks for that do you have weblinks to these incidents?.
Interesting that people have pointed the early finger at nefarious causes but not the ubiquitous Li until maybe now.

we can't carry scissors on board but several lithium batteries are Ok?

Can't provide any links sorry. The iPhone one self combusted in a passengers pocket on landing on an RPT flight in Sydney following a non authorised repair/modification to the phone. The first camera battery incident was during baggage loading in Melbourne, a bag started to smoke and was noticed by the handlers and thrown aside. Was a photographers spare battery packs that had begun to smoulder. The second camera was a passengers smouldering bag noticed in the aerobridge on boarding in Sydney. I don't know the detail of the iPad but again it was smouldering in a bag on boarding in Perth. To the best of my knowledge none of these have been investigated by the ATSB.

 

[mannej]

Can't provide any links sorry. The iPhone one self combusted in a passengers pocket on landing on an RPT flight in Sydney following a non authorised repair/modification to the phone. The first camera battery incident was during baggage loading in Melbourne, a bag started to smoke and was noticed by the handlers and thrown aside. Was a photographers spare battery packs that had begun to smoulder. The second camera was a passengers smouldering bag noticed in the aerobridge on boarding in Sydney. I don't know the detail of the iPad but again it was smouldering in a bag on boarding in Perth. To the best of my knowledge none of these have been investigated by the ATSB.

Here is a link to an article that alludes to an incident that occurred on a Rex flight a couple of years ago. I believe a summary is also on Avherald.

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2011-11-29/iphone-catches-fire/3701250

 

[Meggsy]

Here is a link to an article that alludes to an incident that occurred on a Rex flight a couple of years ago. I believe a summary is also on Avherald.

Airline passenger's iPhone catches fire - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

Thanks, yes that was the first one. You can see the apple image has a silhouette of Steve Jobs on it. A bit longer ago than I thought.

 

[Meggsy]

https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/5092909/ao-2014-082_final.docx
just found this one for number 2

 

[Quickstatus]

We're not talking about planekiller fires here.

... With 20/20 hindsight.

Individual small cap batteries probably low risk but I can imagine someone carrying high cap Li batteries like the one linked above on that Fiji airlines flight would be cause for a inflight mayday. All fires are potentially plane killers.

 

[Skyring]

... With 20/20 hindsight.

Individual small cap batteries probably low risk but I can imagine someone carrying high cap Li batteries like the one linked above on that Fiji airlines flight would be cause for a inflight mayday. All fires are potentially plane killers.

Mmmm, but the airline industry takes safety and security pretty seriously - as they should - and I'm not seeing any push to ban rechargeable battery powered devices in flight for fear that an iPad might start to smoulder.

On the contrary, Qantas is putting iPad minis in every seat pocket on its 717s and encouraging pax to download free reading via an app. Show your iphone at the gate with a "barcode" on the screen and walk aboard. I think they are happy for pax to have their head buried in a device all flight long, especially if they are using inflight wifi, as a lot of airlines are now providing.

in-seat power and USB ports are becoming the norm nowadays. Airlines are positively encouraging personal electronic gadgets.

Agree on bigger batteries or stocks of spares. Especially if in checked baggage. Even in an overhead locker there's the potential for a fire to start and spread to godknowswhat in adjacent baggage, let alone proximity to cabling and ducts in the crown space.

 

[whatmeworry]

Their is a video by Bear Grylls, on how to start a fire with a mobile phone battery.

 

[Mal]

in-seat power and USB ports are becoming the norm nowadays. Airlines are positively encouraging personal electronic gadgets.

Agree, but most airlines are moving towards a policy of do not charge while not in use.


I still have my thoughts on what happened to this plane, but as I'm not an expert, and the black boxes have not been recovered, my general comment is " I won't fly ex Paris, nor ex Egypt, nor on Egyptian Air"

 

[Skyring]

…my general comment is " I won't fly ex Paris, nor ex Egypt, nor on Egyptian Air"

Because they'll all have increased security now and the delays will be horrendous. Good thinking.

 

[OATEK]

Agree, but most airlines are moving towards a policy of do not charge while not in use.


I still have my thoughts on what happened to this plane, but as I'm not an expert, and the black boxes have not been recovered, my general comment is " I won't fly ex Paris, nor ex Egypt, nor on Egyptian Air"

I am flying ex-Paris next month, and don't see any reason to change based on anything published to date. By the same token, Egypt Air is on my no-fly list, and sadly Egypt is not likely to be somewhere I visit any time soon, if ever. Perhaps if I was younger...

 

[Quickstatus]

Even in an overhead locker there's the potential for a fire to start and spread to godknowswhat in adjacent baggage, let alone proximity to cabling and ducts in the crown space.

"Godknowswhat" = duty free alcohol. Would not want this juxtaposed with an exploding Li battery

 

[Foreigner]

Bloomberg editorial here:

Warnings From the EgyptAir Tragedy - Bloomberg View

 

[Glider_]

…my general comment is " I won't fly ex Paris, nor ex Egypt, nor on Egyptian Air"

Because they'll all have increased security now and the delays will be horrendous. Good thinking.

Data point, I flew into CDG last month from VCE and they had re-instituted their intra-EU passport checks, as expected. However, it seemed to me that after so long without border controls, and now the sudden urgent need to do them thoroughly, it felt like they'd forgotten how to process large volumes of incoming passengers efficiently. The facilities seemed insufficient and the thoroughfares were either under new construction or had been decommissioned a long time ago, it was hard to tell.

 

[OATEK]

Data point, I flew into CDG last month from VCE and they had re-instituted their intra-EU passport checks, as expected. However, it seemed to me that after so long without border controls, and now the sudden urgent need to do them thoroughly, it felt like they'd forgotten how to process large volumes of incoming passengers efficiently. The facilities seemed insufficient and the thoroughfares were either under new construction or had been decommissioned a long time ago, it was hard to tell.

Even without the Egyptair crash, CDG would have upgraded security for the upcoming European Football Championship. So I expect delays until early July when the football tournament ends.