DJ pax frogmarched off plane

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Not if those averages were calculated years ago before the obesity epidemic...

I believe a small regional aircraft crashed in the USA some years ago, they found the average weight of a person was much higher than the average used to calculate the weight... I'm sure they monitor it more now.

IIRC it was an Air Crash Investigation episode a while back....
 
Not if those averages were calculated years ago before the obesity epidemic...

I think they have been adjusted in recent years.

The US is currently going through a process of adjusting boat capacities for this very reason.
 
We were told on a QF CBR-ADL flight that we needed more fuel as it was raining, as a result they offloaded' bags instead of pax.

I guess that's where the true 'priority' bag tag meaning comes into play.
 
Not if those averages were calculated years ago before the obesity epidemic...

Except the averages weren't having been revised upwards in response to an accident.

I'm fighting the urge to say obesity epidemic? Too much today tonight?
 
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Secondly, god forbid if they had taken off with the extra two passengers then, mid way through the flight got a late change of weather warning..... what would happen then? Call for volunteers to jump out a port hole?
I would assume in this case the plane would be diverted or sent back, as does happen frequently with many incidences of when a flight en route is then informed of poor weather conditions at destination.
Actually such an issue occurring mid-flight would be not as much of a problem.

Since the distance to destination is less and the aircraft has already burned fuel (weight), the tolerances will be relatively greater, so a re-calculation of the route in such circumstance is likely to provide a solution that complies with regulations.

I have read that some pilots get around regulations by deliberately planning a route to a destination somewhat less distance away than their intended destination. Mid-route they re-calculate to the actual destination as this now falls within the regulatory parameters.
 
I have read that some pilots get around regulations by deliberately planning a route to a destination somewhat less distance away than their intended destination. Mid-route they re-calculate to the actual destination as this now falls within the regulatory parameters.

This sounds like a horrible idea. Why would they do this? One would assume that the regulations are in place for a good reason.
 
This sounds like a horrible idea. Why would they do this? One would assume that the regulations are in place for a good reason.

As I understand it, it is all perfectly legal.
It is legal to fudge the destination before take-off using theoretical figures? :confused:

Since we are talking about safety are there any other regulations being broken that we need to worry about?
 
It is legal to fudge the destination before take-off using theoretical figures? :confused:

It is a fuel management procedure, and you can always land at your initial airport if you need to! However, my understanding is that most flights using this procedure make it to their final destination. But I would have thought that it is only used on long haul flights, and not something a 737 might be involved with!

It is called variously the redispatch procedure, reclear procedure or decision point procedure. Do a search on Decision Point Procedure Fuel Planning if it hepls.
 
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This sounds like a horrible idea. Why would they do this? One would assume that the regulations are in place for a good reason.
It is not a horrible idea, it is a perfectly safe and practical idea that does not in any way break any regulations.

It is legal to fudge the destination before take-off using theoretical figures? :confused:

Since we are talking about safety are there any other regulations being broken that we need to worry about?
Nothing is being fudged as you put it and no regulations are being broken.

A made up example.

The aircraft is required to carry a fixed fuel reserve, let’s say 45 minutes, a variable reserve of 15% plus fuel for the approach, let’s say 10 min.

Say a flight from A to B is going to take 240 minutes. This means they then need to carry 331 minutes of fuel if the weather is ideal. I.e. 240+45+36+10

If the weather is less than ideal they may need to carry 30 or 60 minutes of holding fuel or they may need to carry fuel for a diversion to an airfield with a better weather forecast.

This can be further complicated by the holding fuel being calculated at the rate it would be burned for holding which may be considerably less than that used for cruising but the diversion fuel is obviously calculated at cruise fuel burn.

Say for example the alternate aerodrome is 80 minutes from the original destination they then need an extra 102 minutes of fuel. So now they are carrying 433 minutes of fuel for a 240 minute flight. For an airliner an extra 193 minutes of fuel is a lot of fuel and consequently a lot of weight.

If the aircraft can only carry 400 minutes of fuel when fully loaded but its maximum capacity is 420 minutes of fuel they can offload passengers or freight to the weight value of that extra 20 minutes of fuel. How they determine this will depend upon circumstances.

Now having 420 minutes of fuel they are, in theory, still 13 minutes of fuel short of having enough fuel to make their alternate. In this case they can plan to an airfield nearby and update as they go or even plan to a point where they still have enough fuel to return to the departure point, or somewhere else, and update just prior to that point. In this example if they recalculate their fuel after they have flown 120 minutes they now only need 120+45+18+10+102 which is 290 minutes plus the 120 already burnt which now means they have enough fuel.

The numbers I have used are totally made up for this example and have no relationship with any real aircraft.

A good example of all of this is the C130A which the RAAF had many years ago could not, in theory, fly from Darwin to Butterworth (Malaysia). However by planning to the point of no return and updating the fuel calculations as they went they could make the trip without issue.

I know this all sounds complicated but it is a real type scenario the sort of which happens regularly as aircraft are pushed toward their design limits...
 
ISTR EK need to do this fairly regularly for make SFO-DXB and LAX-DXB with their 777s.
 
A friend of mine who flew B744s for Cathay said they regularly did this on flights to LHR. It was not really an issue heading to Europe as there are many airfields enroute. The real issue is when they were going the other way as there were not many options available.
 
When working at the airport in BRU I remember one day where we had an issue with the weight on a particularly full 747 which opperated seasonaly. Captain said just adjust the average weight of the pax. When even this did not solve the issue the decision was made to take less fuel as they "had enough fuel where they were going" :shock:
 
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