DJ pax frogmarched off plane

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Firstly, I can't believe that the engineering tolerance for a successful flight in the normal range of weather patterns is so fine that 200KG or so will make any difference. What does a small jet weigh fully fueled and loaded? 250 tonnes or so right?

Secondly, god forbid if they had taken off with the extra two passengers then, mid way through the flight got a late change of weather warning..... what would happen then? Call for volunteers to jump out a port hole?

There is a reason why Aviation is probbaly the safest way to travel, they take no chances. It's all numbers, once you are passed a certain point it's not safe. Full stop.

You would be suprised how often conditions can change, and even the best made plans can fall apart. At the end of the day the crew did the right thing. Short of Vigin Operations team being weather forecasters, there is not much you can do.
 
Not an easy question answer but the decision to off-load 2 passengers is quite confusing and does not make any sense the way it has been reported.

How much extra weight did they need available? How much do 2 random passengers (who happen to check in last) weigh? You and I are not going to weigh the same as samh004 and karens!

To me it sounds like there something missing from this story....

Perhaps peoples understanding of how take-off weight is calculated. I don't know how many variables are in it, but I suspect it is number of males, females, amount of fuel, and amount of freight.I don't know if they have any other parameters to play with.

There is an assumed weight for males and females.

The problem is if the calculation comes out at > max weight, then the plane isn't going anywhere.
 
This all sounds awfully suspicious to me.

Firstly, I can't believe that the engineering tolerance for a successful flight in the normal range of weather patterns is so fine that 200KG or so will make any difference. What does a small jet weigh fully fueled and loaded? 250 tonnes or so right?

Secondly, god forbid if they had taken off with the extra two passengers then, mid way through the flight got a late change of weather warning..... what would happen then? Call for volunteers to jump out a port hole?
This does not surprise me at all.

The weight and balance calculations of an aircraft are quite complicated. Aircraft are weighed individually and it is required to be done periodically even if 'nothing' has apparently been changed on the aircraft. The basic weighing and the calculations are done on an empty aircraft and then all the add ons are included. A copy of all the weight and balance paperwork is carried on the aircraft in the Flight Manual but the operating calculations are all computerised.

Ultimately when the pilot's do their weight and balance calculations they must always end up with an answer that is within the limits as specified by the manufacturer and certifying authority.

In the type of situation being discussed the fuel required is calculated and then added to the already calculated operating weight. The passenger and baggage weight are then added. IF the total is less than the max operating weight then all is OK. IF it is higher then something must be off loaded. It cannot be fuel or crew so therefore it must be freight, baggage or passengers. Freight and baggage are accurate as they are real weights. Passengers are worked out on an average weight so yes it is possible that the people you are unloading are higher or lower than average.

The only way to prove this is to weigh every individual which then upsets all the do gooders as you are seen to be picking on people. This is a whole separate argument as is the one about who or what should be unloaded.

No pilot I know would takeoff above max AUW as it is not worth his licence and no airline would allow this to be done as it is not worth their AOC.

So what does this all mean in the real world :?:

The regulator (FAA), the manufacturer (Boeing) and the operator (Virgin Blue) have to define a limit at some point and no matter how they do it someone will say it should/could have been done differently. The decision to work on average weights is fairly accurate though not perfect and as such is only used on large aircraft. For small aircraft it is normal to weigh all passengers and freight.

If a forecast changes mid flight then the pilots simply recalculate with what they have and divert if that is required. Bearing in mind that forecasts tend to err on the cautious side, are updated at regular intervals and last for relatively long periods. There is a requirement to carry fuel for an alternate or holding depending upon the forecast weather.

The reality is that there are many occassions where there is a balance between fuel carried and payload. The difference is that in this particular instance it became obvious to the travelling public.
 
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Secondly, god forbid if they had taken off with the extra two passengers then, mid way through the flight got a late change of weather warning..... what would happen then? Call for volunteers to jump out a port hole?

I would assume in this case the plane would be diverted or sent back, as does happen frequently with many incidences of when a flight en route is then informed of poor weather conditions at destination.
 
How much extra weight did they need available? How much do 2 random passengers (who happen to check in last) weigh? You and I are not going to weigh the same as samh004 and karens!

Honourable mention!!!! :D:cool:
 
No pilot I know would takeoff above max AUW as it is not worth his licence.

+1 It dosen't matter if its 2 or 2000ks, the flight is overloaded. We have to remember that safety should always be #1 priority. If the flight takes off a big overloaded like here, where does the line sit? Does a flight later on take off with 300kg? They have a line in the sand for a reason, thats how rules work.

While I'm not sure we are seeing all the details here, I believe the crew have done the right thing.
 
I see from the responses that I've not made myself clear. No-one will ever seriously argue (I hope) that when the 'unsafe' light comes on the crew need to do something.

My suspicion is that versus the loaded weight of the aircraft, 2 passengers at say 200KG combined represents only about 0.08% of total weight.

Given this infinitesimally small variation, and if this is the difference between being overloaded and safe, the random combination of passengers, weather, baggage and fuel must trigger this condition _all_ the time. Really, it must happen daily at least, if not several times per day.

Unless the whole international Sumo wrestling team where on board, I find it difficult to believe that the safe engineering tolerances which lead to safe/unsafe determinations are this finely balanced. I'd expect at least a few percent, _at least_, and this translates as tonnes of safe working headroom, not just a few kg.

So, again, not doubting the crew acted for a good reason - just wondering if the reason reported was _real_
 
Given this infinitesimally small variation, and if this is the difference between being overloaded and safe, the random combination of passengers, weather, baggage and fuel must trigger this condition _all_ the time. Really, it must happen daily at least, if not several times per day.

While they may not be that finely balanced, the point is that they have to put a number on the maximum weight allowed, and that is rigidly enforced.
 
While they may not be that finely balanced, the point is that they have to put a number on the maximum weight allowed, and that is rigidly enforced.

As it should be. Its not for crew to try and back engineer working tolerances. But wouldn't you think this would be no news at all because it would tend to happen on say 10-30% of all flights???

Random combinations of passengers, when there are literally hundreds of them, and given a margin of only 200KG would trigger this event continually. If you do the maths, its staggering how often it pops up.
 
Perhaps peoples understanding of how take-off weight is calculated. I don't know how many variables are in it, but I suspect it is number of males, females, amount of fuel, and amount of freight.I don't know if they have any other parameters to play with.

There is an assumed weight for males and females.

The problem is if the calculation comes out at > max weight, then the plane isn't going anywhere.
I know it is not that simple but how would I take a pilots calculations seriously when it is all guess work?

My issue is not with the plane being overweight and something needing to come off but rather the fact of making an assumption of how much someone or a group of people weigh having no accurate facts but simply using an average weight of whether they are male, female or children. Surely using averages is not very accurate as all males, females, children do not weigh the same. So did 2 passengers really need to come off or was there enough available weight to allow another passenger on board?

Keeping a peson who weighs 120kg on the flight because they checked in first and off loading 2 passengers who checked in last and weigh 55kgs each does not make any sense to me. Am I missing something here?
 
As it should be. Its not for crew to try and back engineer working tolerances. But wouldn't you think this would be no news at all because it would tend to happen on say 10-30% of all flights???

Random combinations of passengers, when there are literally hundreds of them, and given a margin of only 200KG would trigger this event continually. If you do the maths, its staggering how often it pops up.
I have finally got back and finished post #23.

See my last line. This type of situation does occur regularly but the difference is that this time the travelling public got to hear about it
 
I know it is not that simple but how would I take a pilots calculations seriously when it is all guess work?

My issue is not with the plane being overweight and something needing to come off but rather the fact of making an assumption of how much someone or a group of people weigh having no accurate facts but simply using an average weight of whether they are male, female or children. Surely using averages is not very accurate as all males, females, children do not weigh the same. So did 2 passengers really need to come off or was there enough available weight to allow another passenger on board?

Keeping a peson who weighs 120kg on the flight because they checked in first and off loading 2 passengers who checked in last and weigh 55kgs each does not make any sense to me. Am I missing something here?
I have answered most of this in my update of post #23.

We will never know if 2 passengers really did need to come off that aircraft just as we will never know if it really should have been 4 or more however this is the system accepted by the regulators as being acceptable and the most appropriate.

Do you have a better system :?:
 
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As it should be. Its not for crew to try and back engineer working tolerances. But wouldn't you think this would be no news at all because it would tend to happen on say 10-30% of all flights???

Random combinations of passengers, when there are literally hundreds of them, and given a margin of only 200KG would trigger this event continually. If you do the maths, its staggering how often it pops up.

It would only really be an issue on a longer flight where you start getting out toward the design limits of the plane. A 737 flying Melbourne to Sydney is not likely to ever get to this situation.

So you are left with the longer flights, and many of these are already load limited. In many cases the issue is dealt with before the PAX step foot on the plane (and sometimes that is at the boarding gate in the US!). So it happens, but most times it is dealt with, wothout anyone being the wiser.
 
This type of situation does occur regularly but the difference is that this time the travelling public got to hear about it


Aha. Ok, thats sounds about right. Normally these things are headed off in some fashion then, but in this instance the problem managed to get far enough down the line that passengers were involved and we then hear about it.

The 'line' so to speak here, would still be leaving a big and safe engineering margin, I'm quite sure of that but as has rightly been pointed out in other posts, that is of no concern to us the flying public nor to the flight crew. The safety margins, how they are calculated and what is truly safe is rather immaterial, the line drawn is drawn by a combined engineering effort of the various bodies involved and the crew follow the guidlines ... completely understand and agree with that.
 
We will never know if 2 passengers really did need to come off that aircraft just as we will never know if it really should have been 4 or more however this is the system accepted by the regulators as being acceptable and the most appropriate.
And perhaps no one needed to come off the aircraft at all.

I am not an expert but I cannot be convinced that it is really appropriate to be using averages and guesswork when it comes to safety. Using averages assumes a balance between high and low whenre as in reality we know that is not always the case.

Do you have a better system :?:
Yes! A system that uses accurate figures rather than guesswork and when stories like this are released we can be 100% certain that the right decision was made.

Right now we don't know what to believe and in reality the 2 passengers could have actually gone to their destination.and not have their holiday ruined.
 
Yes! A system that uses accurate figures rather than guesswork and when stories like this are released we can be 100% certain that the right decision was made.

That would require weighing everybody and all their hand luggage, at time of boarding.
 
That would require weighing everybody and all their hand luggage, at time of boarding.
Yep, not really practical.

[ot]Although I don't mind the idea of more stringently policing cabin baggage size limits (especially on QF).[/ot]

What would happen in a scenario where all pax were weighed at the gate but then the aircraft was found to be over-weight. Would the method for choosing pax to leave the aircraft change (i.e. heaviest first)?

Probably no point in entertaining this scenario as I can't really see it happening. I think using averages is fine as I'm sure much smarter people than myself have figured out some safe buffers for all likely scenarios.
 
I am not an expert but I cannot be convinced that it is really appropriate to be using averages and guesswork when it comes to safety. Using averages assumes a balance between high and low whenre as in reality we know that is not always the case.

it's been a while since I've done any serious statistics. But ISTR that once n gets over about 30 then the average is pretty much correct. On a 737 with, what, 180, I'd bet money the average would be fine.
 
it's been a while since I've done any serious statistics. But ISTR that once n gets over about 30 then the average is pretty much correct. On a 737 with, what, 180, I'd bet money the average would be fine.

Not if those averages were calculated years ago before the obesity epidemic...
 
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