'Bi-polar' threat man shot dead

Discussion in 'Open Discussion' started by NM, Dec 8, 2005.

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  1. NM

    NM
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    From News.com.au (and available on almost every media site)

    quote="News.com.au"]THE man who fled a plane following a bomb threat and was shot dead by a US air marshal may have been mentally ill, it has been reported.
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    The 44-year-old US citizen was shot and killed on the jetway between the plane and the terminal at Miami International Airport.[/quote]

    and from cnn.com

     
  2. Guest

    Guest Guest

    good to see those air marshalls actually doing something to help! :)
     
  3. bambbbam2

    bambbbam2 Active Member

    Feb 13, 2005
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    What, shooting dead a mentally ill, unarmed person?

    Yeah, great help. :roll:
     
  4. oz_mark

    oz_mark Enthusiast

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    Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
     
  5. JohnK

    JohnK Veteran Member

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    I know everyone is really panicking right now with terrorism running mad but do we really have to shoot first and ask questions later. I remember reading in the article that the wife was running after him as well shouting "my husband, my husband". Sad waste of an innocent life.
     
  6. QF WP

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    Exactly. Whilst I feel sorry for the gentleman, I feel the actions may have been justified for the greater good of all...

    My only concern with the shooting is whether there was any opportunity to disable (shoot, but not kill) the man before he exited the jetway into the terminal. The only person able to answer that question would be the Air Marshall, who had seconds to weigh up their actions/inactions and the consequences of each. that is what they are trained to do...and we are merely experts from afar, morally judging with perfect hindsight and no idea of what it's like to be put in that situation.

    The problem being, as the man was acting erracticly and hadn't taken his medication (it is reported his wife told them after her husband had been shot), it's his primary fault for the situation unfolding; rather than the Air Marshall who has to take into account the safety of pax & crew on the plane, but more importantly, the thousands of pax in the terminal. The man needed to be disabled before he reached the vicinity where, if he had been a terrorist, he could inflict maximum damage/death/disruption/panic.

    Hey, I'm flying through LAX (x2), DFW, MIA (x2), SFO and SEA (x2) in my upcoming holiday. I'm going to travel more comfortably (and Mrs LW even moreso) knowing that it's likely that one of my First Class companions is an Air Marshall [we're on AA (domestic) First on 3 out of 4 flights and AA Intl Business on one of the 2 Intl sectors].
     
  7. Maca44

    Maca44 Established Member

    Sep 2, 2005
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    There are a number of issues that will arise from this unfortunate incident, and one should examine the evidence before forming an opinion. If you want hostility just go to the security thread on the FT as there are a couple of OP there who clearly have no respect for authority, and irrespective of any outcome they will always have a negative opinion.

    I am assuming the Air Marshall did not know the person he shot, and anyone who has been in a hostile environment such as the Police or the Armed Forces will know that when you take someones life, irrespective whether they are in the right or wrong, the memory of that event remains with you always, and so this FAM will have to live with what has occurred whether he was in the right or the wrong. Unfortunately, I have been in too many hostile situations and although the last thing you want is for anyone to get hurt, especially yourself, you do not have the benefit of hindsight and reaction time is reduced to seconds. All I am saying is don't crucify the FAM until all the facts are known.
     
  8. NM

    NM
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    Lets look at some of the information that has been provided through our known-trustworthy and highly accurate :roll: media sources:
    • The man was acting erratically
    • He claimed to have a bomb
    • He was wearing a backpack
    • The Air Marshall demanded he stop - he did not
    • The Air Marshall demanded he remove the backpack - he did not
    • Instead he reached inside the backpack
    • The AM fired up to 3 shots in quick succession

    Now, if there really was a bomb inside as the man claimed, I think the AM would rather ensure he had no chance to detonate the device. Any action short of what was reportedly taken may have permitted a really terrorist with a real bomb to detonate his device. A wounded suicide bomber is just going to detonate his device if at all possible.

    As sad as the outcome has been, the information reported in the media indicates to me that the action was justified. In my opinion, this is a very sad outcome caused by the continued threat of violent acts by terrorist organisations.
     
  9. bigjobs

    bigjobs Active Member

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    has anyone been watching the SBS program at 8.30pm these past few thursdays at 8.30pm.

    title is The Cutting Edge: The Power of Nightmares. it was part 3 tonight, The Shadows in the Cave.

    if you haven't seen them it would be worth getting a copy of them from someone and watching. its just another perspective on the current climate of fear that is motivating people based upon what is imagined as the worst possible outcome.

    i don't know if they are correct, its just an alternate view to what we are usually told is reality by the political and media machines.

    for me these events of today are interesting when you look at what this programming is suggesting.

    Lesson for me, stay away from the USA. Maybe i'll go live in Invercargill or something :!:
     
  10. Mal

    Mal Enthusiast

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    Those who remember my ranting over a certain Australian girl stuck in a certain country over drugs charges may see what may be coming in my post!

    You pretend you have a bomb. You ignore warnings to stop, get down on the ground etc. You then proceed to get into your backpack to do something.

    Sorry. To me that implys you have a bomb and are setting it off. If I was a FAM, I'd shoot you on the spot. I wouldn't aim for the legs either...

    While insecurity may be an illusion, there are enough nutcases in this world who want to do damage to everyday people and the way we live.

    Do something stupid on a plane, expect to feel the consequences. I dont' care if you have a medical condition that affects you. If 200+ pax are saved becase you are stopped, then so be it...
     
  11. acampbel

    acampbel Member

    Oct 31, 2005
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    There have been some valid points made here, but I would argue caution.

    Does anyone remember Jean Charles de Menezes? He was the terrorist wearing a bulky winter coat on a warm day who ran into a tube station when pursued by plain-clothes police, vaulted the turnstiles, refused to stop when challenged, and then ran aboard a train. The police then had no choice but to subdue him with 7 bullets to the head.

    The problem was that only the last statement turned out to be true.

    Terrorism takes many forms ......


    Cheers,

    AC

    P.S. If I EVER suspect that I am sitting beside a so-call sky marshal I will definitely NOT enjoy the flight.
     
  12. cpl

    cpl Intern

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    I watched most of it. Repeating approximately every two minutes the same message (different faces at least) that there is no threat did not make the report more convincing.
     
  13. robertz

    robertz Member

    Sep 15, 2005
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    I've actually seen a SAM at work on an AA flight.
    Person went into the toilets for a bit longer than normal. I noticed this as well.....
    After he came out, the AA FT moved the cart in front of the cockpit door to feed the captain.
    Whilst the door was open the SAM got up and went to speak to them. He was a very big guy and for a split second I was more scared of him getting up walking towards an open cockpit door than a guy in the dunny taking a 5 minute dump.

    I've also had the pleasure of witnessing a guy at ATL who was in an argument with the TSA officers. This guy lifted up his hand to turn the TSA persons name badge up to get his name, as he couldn't see it.
    Next thing he was on the ground with police and TSA people coming from every direction. I asked the TSA why he was subdued. He replied. You never touch a TSA agent under any circumstances.

    Moral of the story? Well none really, but NM or Dave introduced me to the word LOTFAP. And every time im at the Airport , I see this in action....

    Rob
     
  14. Yada Yada

    Yada Yada Established Member

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    While I agree that the air marshalls seemed to have a reasonably good motivation to stop this man, you'd hope that they would disable him rather than kill him. One thing that sticks out is that real terrorists don't run through planes with their wife chasing them, announcing that they have a bomb.

    When I visited ths USA approx 6 months after 9/11, my family (wife and three kids aged 1, 5 and 10) were stopped for "random" security checks before boarding every flight. Suspecting we had been singled out for some reason, I eventually asked why it was happening every time. The response was "you are travelling on a one-way ticket".

    We had in fact purchased all one-way tickets on Travelocity and were renting cars and touring, then getting on a plane in another state, etc. Apparently this flagged us as a terrorist risk.

    It makes no sense. Do terrorists only puchase a one-way ticket to save a few hundred bucks before they kill themselves? I feel that the baby has been thrown out with the bathwater.

    Good luck Lindsay. I'd be worried that I might get caught in the cross-fire! :( After the last few trips to the USA I don't want to go back. Getting in and out of airports over there is so much more difficult these days.
     
  15. Dave Noble

    Dave Noble Senior Member

    Oct 10, 2005
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    To be fair on them, if there is a need to use firearms, then it is perfectly sane to use it in a deadly manner in order to remove the threat. Just injure the person, and if he had had abomb, he could well be able to still detonate.

    Whether their reaction is correct in this case is hard to say without being there and having seen what transpired

    Dave
     
  16. Yada Yada

    Yada Yada Established Member

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    I've seen the term "LOTFAP" over on FT. What does it mean?


    I agree, although my point is that I don't think terrorists behave like this. They seem to be well organised and not prone to advertising what they are about to do. This event seems more like a scene from a Bruce Willis movie.
     
  17. NM

    NM
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    In reference to the United States of Paranoia, it stands for Land Of The Free And Paranoid.
     
  18. Yada Yada

    Yada Yada Established Member

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    :lol: Thanks NM.
     
  19. shillard

    shillard Guest

    No.

    Air Marshalls (like all armed law enforcers) are trained to shoot to STOP. This means firing into the centre of mass (the torso) until the target stops.

    Shooting to "disable" (ie: hand, leg, arm, etc) is the stuff of Cowboy movies and distorted fantasies. Just not viable under real-world conditions, and would be hard enough to achieve under ideal shooting range conditions - much less when the adrenaline is pumping and you could be dealing with some nutjob wearing a semtex vest, intent on giving a planeload of pax the hug of all hugs.


    I'll back those blokes 100% and then some. The end result is one less crazed nutter in the world, and that can only be a good thing.

    All of those whingers who are so keen to wail and scream "arrgghhh! what about the poor innocent man murdered in cold blood by the evil neocon fascist imperialist air marshalls" etc etc would be the first to howl and scream if some Islamofascist blew himself and a hundred innocents to dust.

    The message has been VERY clear for over 4 years now - misbehave in the vicinity of commercial air traffic, and you could well pay for that with your life. No excuses, no exceptions. They acted justly and honourably.


    End of story.
     
  20. shillard

    shillard Guest

    No.

    Air Marshalls (like all armed law enforcers) are trained to shoot to STOP. This means firing into the centre of mass (the torso) until the target stops.

    Shooting to "disable" (ie: hand, leg, arm, etc) is the stuff of Cowboy movies and distorted fantasies. Just not viable under real-world conditions, and would be hard enough to achieve under ideal shooting range conditions - much less when the adrenaline is pumping and you could be dealing with some nutjob wearing a semtex vest, intent on giving a planeload of pax the hug of all hugs.


    I'll back those blokes 100% and then some. The end result is one less crazed nutter in the world, and that can only be a good thing.

    All of those whingers who are so keen to wail and scream "arrgghhh! what about the poor innocent man murdered in cold blood by the evil neocon fascist imperialist air marshalls" etc etc would be the first to howl and scream if some Islamofascist blew himself and a hundred innocents to dust.

    The message has been VERY clear for over 4 years now - misbehave in the vicinity of commercial air traffic, and you could well pay for that with your life. No excuses, no exceptions. They acted justly and honourably.


    End of story.
     
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