Another London Terror Attack - London Bridge & Borough Market.

[kelvedon]

If one of the reasons for the terrorists actions is to bring publicity to their cause, maybe if the media didn't name the group claiming responsibility, that might diminish their effect?

 

[OATEK]

If one of the reasons for the terrorists actions is to bring publicity to their cause, maybe if the media didn't name the group claiming responsibility, that might diminish their effect?

Can't see it myself. They are likely to up the ante (as in 9/11), looking for recognition amongst potential adherents.

There is a sense that terrorism is always with us, from IRA and Red Brigades, to Radical Islam. And yes far more Australians, Brits and Yanks die in road accidents than Islamic terrorism. But the crucial issue is that Radical Islam wants nothing less than the destruction of liberal democracy, and so I don't know how to characterise our efforts to resist that change without naming the opponent.

 

[amaroo]

This thread reminds me of this...

[video=youtube;SJUhlRoBL8M]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJUhlRoBL8M[/video]

 

[Quickstatus]

PS Can you actually name even one person who has advocated "The head in the sand approach and pretending it's all rosy""

Sounds like there its unrestricted rather than "here on AFF"

But to your point - anyone who can suggest that diplomatic solutions can be found. Or you can start with anyone who thinks that the Islamic terrorists are driven by economic circumstance and social marginalisation.

In a way we have been here before. Remember the Soviets and the nuclear arms race/Cold war?. Many were loudly protesting that the US should unilaterally remove its nuclear weapons. It was not until Reagan labelled the Soviets as an "Evil Emipre" and proceeded to ignore the appeasers and outspend the Soviets militarily. Remember the academics/media who for decades denied the existence of the Soviet gulags and the secret police?. They are still around.
To say that fridges kill more people in the US than Islamic terrorists is to conveniently ignore the beheadings, the murder of gays and Christians, the rape of women and children, the destruction of cities, the enslavement of peoples .

Read up on Whittaker Chambers he was an Communist american who became a strident anti communist later in life and he talks about the intellectuals ignoring the "screams in the night" of the victims of the Soviet regime.
Did diplomacy bring down the Soviets. No

Reagan called out the Soviets
Trump called out the Islamic terrorists in the seat of conservative Islam in the presence of the King of Saudi Arabia (and the custodian of the 2 most holy sites of Islam)
Many politicians are so weak that they can't do it. Neville Chamberlains......I don't recall appeasing the naz_s made any difference?

Yes people who want to appease totalitarian regimes and have a nice cup of tea and bikkies and a chat over the back fence, have their head in the sand pretending its all rosy. History repeats itself - all the time.

Condemn Islam - no
Ban Islam - no
Ban radical Islam - no. Stamp it out. (Bin Laden was not banned- he was eliminated)
But Islam has a problem with extremism and radicals

Appeasement: the self delusion that making peace with our enemies will persuade them to like us and not kill us. Cant think of one totalitarian regime, where this has worked.....

 

[JohnK]

Do we need a similar occurrence in Main Street, Bacchus Marsh before you understand?

Much easier to ignore than try to understand. After all if we ignore and carry on with our daily lives the issue will eventually go away. Or we may have it wrong and more and more innocent people including children will continue to die.

 

[marki]

Kirsty Boden, 28, from South Australia, is believed to have been killed in London

It's believed she's the 'unidentified Australian' PM Malcolm Turnbull referred*to

Ms Boden's family is reportedly being given assistance by the SA government

Four Australians were caught in attack including missing nanny Sara Zelanak
An Australian nurse living in London is the fourth person confirmed dead following the weekend's terror attack.
Kirsty Boden, from Loxton, South Australia, was killed by the knife-wielding terrorists as she ran to help another victim of the attack on London Bridge and nearby Borough Market.
The 28-year-old was remembered by her family as being 'brave' in her final moments as she went to the aid of one of the injured in a statement released on Tuesday,

 

[dajop]

Appeasement: the self delusion that making peace with our enemies will persuade them to like us and not kill us. Cant think of one totalitarian regime, where this has worked.....

I have always assumed a reluctance to call it out is more a reluctance to pour more fuel on the fire, and potentially attract more supporters to the cause (of radical islamic terrorism). I wouldn't have called this an "appeasement" policy, just a pragmatic approach. This is not a totalitarian regime with 10 million (or even 100 million) captive citizens/followers (who have no choice, despite personal feelings). It is a group with a reasonable number of committed followers, who are looking for reasons to recruit more to the cause. If you take a strong, firm stand against a religion with 1.5 billion adherents, isn't there always a risk of moving a proportion of them to become radicalised and create more havoc, and terror than already exists? Much more. So is it appeasement or just working behind the scenes to avoid public posturing?

I have no idea, and do not pretend to be an expert with a solution, unlike many who have opinions. What I am sure about though, if there were a simple low risk response/solution to the problem, then those who are paid to ensure our security (i.e. not our politicians) would have found it by now. Who knows, despite these continual issues, they may well be managing to minimise damage - who knows what other attacks have been foiled. I don't think I want to know.

Unfortunately I don't think grandstanding commentators with simple solutions - nor leaders with 140 character slogans- have the answer. It is far more complicated than "war on islam" or a tweet outlining a "travel ban". Couple that of course with the complicated history of different sects of islam and a western reliance on oil coming from islamic dominated countries, and it is an incredibly complex situation.

 

[lovetravellingoz]

Appeasement: the self delusion that making peace with our enemies will persuade them to like us and not kill us. Cant think of one totalitarian regime, where this has worked.....

And where did I ever advocate appeasement? Where did I advocate making peace with our enemies? You do not even read what people have written.

(Bin Laden was not banned- he was eliminated) you just wrote. But go up to my last post and you will see I wrote Bin Laden was not banned by the way, but assassinated. Drastic, but completely necessary.

Does that sound like I am advocating appeasement? No I am not a fan of appeasement.

I am just not willing to make whole segments of populations guilty based on labels.


There are no simple solutions, and not one right answer. Many and varied things need to be done. Militarily, politically, socially etc etc But it is not as simple as saying that it is the religion at fault. And stirring up hate would only deepen the problem and hand the terrorists that which they seek. Stirring up the hate makes you their enabler.

However I will say one thing more before I leave this thread as we clearly will never agree. Human nature is such that unfortunately dark souls will always exist. ISIS is but one incarnation. Ivan Milat, Martin Bryant, Adrian Bayley, the list goes on. Fortunately there is a lot more good in the world that bad. And more good people than bad. And fortunately very few very evil ones, but those that are will always end up following their bent. And they comes from all walks of life, all races, and all religions. That evil exists does not mean that you just accept it. You fight against it and work against it.

When you read of the backgrounds of these religious terrorists you do not read of pious, in many cases you read about thugs with criminal backgrounds who have found a way to continue their mayhem.

 

[OATEK]

When you read of the backgrounds of these religious terrorists you do not read of pious, in many cases you read about thugs with criminal backgrounds who have found a way to continue their mayhem.

Exactly right, and that is why so many struggle to see why a perverted form of Islam is so attractive to so many of these crims, thugs and druggies. They are offered a once only chance to wipe away all their sins. Christians approach this by the simple act of asking God to forgive them, but these extreme Islamists do so by seeking martyrdom. To think that Islamic belief, however far it might seem to be outside the mainstream, is not behind these attacks is in my view a mistake.

 

[Deleted member]

Sara is a local girl from our Bayside Community here in Cleveland, I know a few people who are close friends with her and her mum, it is times like these when you know or know of someone involved that brings the reality just that little closer to home.
I can only imagine what her parents are dealing with as they head to UK to basically look for a body, all hope seemingly lost.

Kirsty Boden, 28, from South Australia, is believed to have been killed in London

It's believed she's the 'unidentified Australian' PM Malcolm Turnbull referred*to

Ms Boden's family is reportedly being given assistance by the SA government

Four Australians were caught in attack including missing nanny Sara Zelanak
An Australian nurse living in London is the fourth person confirmed dead following the weekend's terror attack.
Kirsty Boden, from Loxton, South Australia, was killed by the knife-wielding terrorists as she ran to help another victim of the attack on London Bridge and nearby Borough Market.
The 28-year-old was remembered by her family as being 'brave' in her final moments as she went to the aid of one of the injured in a statement released on Tuesday,

 

[drron]

When you read of the backgrounds of these religious terrorists you do not read of pious, in many cases you read about thugs with criminal backgrounds who have found a way to continue their mayhem.

Sorry but most have been described as religious including the Manchester bomber and the ringleader of the London bombing.The second named London bomber had recently split with his wife over religious difficulties.
Then there is Man Monis who was mad and a criminal but also attended Hizb ut-Tahrir meetings regularly and a week before the Lindt Café converted from Shia to Sunni.Also split with his wife after he said she should be veiled and not sing or dance.
And the day before the siege posted this on his facebook page-

Islam is the religion of peace, that's why Muslims fight against the oppression and terrorism of USA and its allies including UK and Australia. If we stay silent towards the criminals we cannot have a peaceful society. The more you fight with crime, the more peaceful you are. Islam wants peace on the Earth, that's why Muslims want to stop terrorism of America and its allies. When you speak out against crime you have taken one step towards peace

So you cant completely discount religion.
Then you are also forgetting the thousands of victims in non Western countries.

 

[Quickstatus]

Assasinated vs eliminated - two very different connotation.

Assasinated - killed for political or religious reasons. Hardly for Bin Laden. Most would agree that Bin Laden was eliminated, taken out, killed not for political or religious reason but because he was a threat to the free world. Assasinated? too good for OBL......

Funny how you say I dont read your threads. Please point out where anyone or I said OBL was/should be banned, or that I said the whole of Islam should be banned.
And please point out where I said you advocated appeasement. Whether you do or not was beside the point of my post. My posts are up until now not generally directed specifically at one person. Please read again my post.

 

[Flying mermaid]

Re: Another London Terror attack - June 3rd 2017

I'm heading there next week

be interested in what the situation is like now. When we were there in 2014, cars were being checked for bombs before allowed near the hotel, we had to go through metal detectors on entering our hotel and armed army guys were there 24/7. Things seem to have quietened down of late, although there is so much going on it is hard to keep track of all the problems. Anyway just booked for the Giraffe Manor in Nairobi in September next year - that is a very hard place to find availability!

 

[alieninperth]

Re: Another London Terror attack - June 3rd 2017

This is the proper response to a cowardly attack.

Football fan shouted 'cough* you, I’m Millwall' and took on knife-wielding terrorists with his bare fists - Independent.ie

Some of the comments on the reddit thread are also worth reading.
This one is particularly appropriate I think https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comme...all_and_took/dikafsi/?st=j3mjqtka&sh=74cca3b7 Caution, the language is a touch on the colourful side (use of the c- word, which I know can offend some people)

 

[whatmeworry]

Re: Another London Terror attack - June 3rd 2017

Just heard a analyst note, these type of attacks are happening more frequently during Ramadan. Might have to take note for next year.

Ramadan 2018 will begin in the evening ofTuesday
, 15 May

and ends in the evening ofThursday
, 14 June

Dates may vary.

 

[drron]

Re: Another London Terror attack - June 3rd 2017

Yes Ramadan 2017-67 attacks in 21 countries with 712 killed.

 

[lovetravellingoz]

Sorry but most have been described as religious

No need to be sorry as yes I am well aware that there is religious influence in their madness. I just see it is their madness that is driving them to do what they do, rather than it is their religion which they do not actually follow as it is meant to be.

including the Manchester bomber and the ringleader of the London bombing.The second named London bomber had recently split with his wife over religious difficulties.
Then there is Man Monis who was mad and a criminal but also attended Hizb ut-Tahrir meetings regularly and a week before the Lindt Café converted from Shia to Sunni.Also split with his wife after he said she should be veiled and not sing or dance.
And the day before the siege posted this on his facebook page-

So you cant completely discount religion.
Then you are also forgetting the thousands of victims in non Western countries.

Er? And how exactly am I forgetting victims in non Western Countries?

Who is discounting religion? Obviously it is a factor in what is occurring. I am just stating that the terrorists do not actually practice the tenants of their claimed religion. They distort it to allow them to do what they want.

By pious my meaning was Deeply concerned with God and the beliefs and practice of religion: I do not see that in any of the terrorists.


You know religion is a funny thing. Many claim to be religious, but there are also many who are so full of hate. The orange and the green and all that.

PS: And thank you for the quote by the terrorist as it proves my point. But yes I do understand that those that wish to hate Muslims will read it and think yes, all Muslims are bad, rather than what a madman that individual was.

 

[lovetravellingoz]

Re: Another London Terror attack - June 3rd 2017

Yes Ramadan 2017-67 attacks in 21 countries with 712 killed.

Lets see. Modus operandi of terrorists?

Perhaps to attack large gatherings of people at a time when they gather. So in a muslim environment when might that be?

 

[theweaselsteve]

Re: Another London Terror attack - June 3rd 2017

I watched a marvelous documentary last night about Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma bombings. The similarities between his actions and those of Muslim extremists were obvious. We have a section of society (usually young men) who feel let down, alienated, isolated and aggrieved by the actions of their own, or other governments. They find solace in these extreme organisations. In the case of McVeigh, the far right gun loving patriot movement, and in the case of the young Muslims, ISIS and the like. It is then that they begin to form severely worrying extreme ideologies and some of them take action.

The Muslim bashing serves the purpose of alienating these young men further and pushes them towards extremism. Of course we need to stamp out radical Islam, but banning immigration, and continuing the bombing in the Middle East is not the way to do it. We need to be engaging with the Muslim youth, and ensuring they have the opportunities to succeed and thrive.

Fear mongering will cause more death.

 

[drron]

Re: Another London Terror attack - June 3rd 2017

Sorry but that I presume was the Pullitzer prize winning documentary.
You do realise that the Oklahoma bombing was on the second Anniversary of the end of the Waco siege and Timothy McVeigh said that was the reason for his hatred of the government.If you read about Waco you will find those at Waco were members of a breakaway sect of the Seventh day Adventist church.Hardly known as right or left wing extremists.
One of the survivors of the siege was an Australian.he gave an interview on the 20th anniversary of the siege.Interesting-
http://www.smh.com.au/world/prophecy-of-doom-20130602-2nkn4.html