Air India B787 crash Ahmedabad

[MEL_Traveller]

How many commercial airliner designs have seen 14 years of commercial ops before their first hull loss?

There’s a list:

https://www.reddit.com/r/aircrashinvestigation/comments/18xdrv9/to_bring_some_solace_i_have_gathered_a_known

One of the comments points out that the a380 is missing from the analysis above, with the type first introduced in 2007 and no hull losses.

Understandable in the 60s and 70s, plus short-haul high-frequency jets didn’t enjoy such long periods before their first losses.

Concorde is also not on the list.

 

[RSD]

Some examples

I guess we will know a lot more once they have analysed the black box data and voice recordings.

But a wrong flap setting wouldn't cause the RAT to deploy, but two engines out would... so I think we can see where this is going...

 

[elanshin]

The Boeing bashing is getting a little over the top and probably needs some perspective. How many commercial airliner designs have seen 14 years of commercial ops before their first hull loss? Blaming Boeing for this could be as appropriate as blaming Airbus for their first A350 loss!

Given early indications point to the failure of two products not made by Boeing, operated by an airline that previously cannibalised new deliveries of 787s for parts due to financial difficulties, there are way too many variables at play.

2025 is proving to be a bad year for aircraft disasters, hopefully in time we learn the causes and learn from them.

Some examples

I don't think its necessarily Boeing bashing as is the reality of Boeing in 2025 with all their problems they had as well how the way they dealt with Lion Air first Max8 crash came back to bite thrn.

Whilst the 787 didn't suffer a hull loss until now, the program was far from smooth. It's by sheer luck they didn't have a hull loss super early on with the lithium battery fire issues that grounded the program. That said, most of the engine reliability problems are with the RR trent-1000 not the GeNX.

 

[jenib]

Some examples




Given the issue at this stage is the failure of the engines to provide thrust for a flight operated by an airline with an interesting past, I suspect the focus is misplaced.

My comment quoted by you was made after your Boeing bashing comment. I don’t have any agenda, flew Qf on the Dreamliner twice in Feb, don’t own shares in Boeing or Qf, do have opinions and interest in software quality and company trust and I’m keen to understand the ultimate cause(s) as a frequent flyer (not an aviation expert). Can’t see how that is Boeing bashing. But anyway ….

 

[markis10]

don't think its necessarily Boeing bashing as is the reality of Boeing in 2025 with all their problems they had as well how the way they dealt with Lion Air first Max8 crash came back to bite thrn.

And that IMHO is irrelevant in this case, indications are at this early stage that it’s likely to not have anything to do with Boeing. I stand to be corrected, but unlike the Max the fact this is the first hull loss in such a long time is indicative of design not being a factor at play in Boeings case and possibly GE, unless it’s a unforeseen fatigue issue. Skytrans are a case in point with their Dash 8-100 early production model having an issue years later.

 

[elanshin]

And that IMHO is irrelevant in this case, indications are at this early stage that it’s likely to not have anything to do with Boeing. I stand to be corrected, but unlike the Max the fact this is the first hull loss in such a long time is indicative of design not being a factor at play in Boeings case.

Oh I don't think its likely a Boeing issue this time (still possible but highly unlikely) but the remarks were more in line with that the current management will likely keep their heads down and send experts to help figure it out unlike their response last time.

Still, the most likely scenario right now outside of pilot error is dual engine shutdown which is also unheard of.

 

[markis10]

dual engine shutdown which is also unheard of.

Not so, it’s rare but let’s not forget the CX A330 incident a few years back handled well by Aussie pilots, both engines in that case while not shutdown were hardly at 100%

 

[Quickstatus]

Understandable in the 60s and 70s, plus short-haul high-frequency jets didn’t enjoy such long periods before their first losses.

There is much more to minimising hull loss than just aircraft design, and build quality. Contributors to aircraft safety extends beyond the aircraft itself and even beyond aircraft maintenance) even though the outcomes tend to be measured in aircraft hull losses.

These include
1) ATC:
Air traffic controller as a profession
Aircraft tracking - transponders, radar
Traffic management techniques in high density areas
ATC procedures and common lamguage
ILS and other precision navigational aids

2) Understanding the role of Human Factors:
Fatigue management
Crew resource managemrnt
Communication
Automation and workload management
Checklists and procedures
coughpit design as it relates to the interface between human and machine

3) Training
Recurrent training
Scenario based learning and practice
High fidelity simulators
Accident and near miss Data analysis and feedback

4) Culture
Just culture - learn from mistakes rather than assign blame within a robust framework of standards.
No blame reporting system
Environment of continuous improvement

5) Regulatory
Robust regulatory oversight which may be at the company and government level
Deep involvement of all stakeholders

 

[Rabs97]

Not so, it’s rare but let’s not forget the CX A330 incident a few years back handled well by Aussie pilots, both engines in that case while not shutdown were hardly at 100%

Post 2000 the dual engine failures I’ve found (please add more) were:

Fuel exhaustion (Bolivian RJ, Ural)
Wrong engine shutdown (TransAsia)
Poor maintenance (Nigerian MD, Tuninter)
Birds (Hudson, Ural, probably Jeju)
TS Water ingestion (Garuda)
Icing (BA).

 

[Foreigner]

So tragic.

Does FR24 or other website disclose historical info of say of Jan 2025? I flew AI DEL-SYD on 11/1. It was a 787-8. Wondering what the registration was.

 

[dajop]

So tragic.

Does FR24 or other website disclose historical info of say of Jan 2025? I flew AI DEL-SYD on 11/1. It was a 787-8. Wondering what the registration was.

I use flightera.net if you know your flight number usually easy to find the registration.

 

[AIRwin]

So tragic.

Does FR24 or other website disclose historical info of say of Jan 2025? I flew AI DEL-SYD on 11/1. It was a 787-8. Wondering what the registration was.

VT-ANV?

 

[Foreigner]

I use flightera.net if you know your flight number usually easy to find the registration.

AI 302

 

[Foreigner]

VT-ANV?

Correct

 

[jb747]

And that IMHO is irrelevant in this case, indications are at this early stage that it’s likely to not have anything to do with Boeing.

And it may not, but the fact remains that Boeing worked hard to destroy its credibility, and was hugely successful. That has not miraculously recovered from the events of the last few years.

I stand to be corrected, but unlike the Max the fact this is the first hull loss in such a long time is indicative of design not being a factor at play in Boeings case and possibly GE, unless it’s a unforeseen fatigue issue.

I don’t think I’ve heard anyone pointing at design, though I have to admit that I’ve been somewhat surprised by the lack of protections vs Airbus. That’s a choice, which was always touted as being pro pilot, but I now wonder if it simply wasn’t cheaper.

 

[jb747]

Not so, it’s rare but let’s not forget the CX A330 incident a few years back handled well by Aussie pilots, both engines in that case while not shutdown were hardly at 100%

We drift off topic, but that was an extremely interesting, and dangerous, event that was very well handled. The engines didn’t fail as such, but I think one ended up compressor stalling, and was running at idle, and the other was stuck at quite a high power setting; more than was needed for the approach. It was basically an event called a “stuck throttle” approach, which we practiced in the Macchi, and in which you shut (simulated) the engine down once you’d gotten yourself into a standard forced landing position.

It shows a couple things related to our discussion here. Fuel contamination issues, don’t necessarily manifest as engine shutdowns, and the issues won’t arise suddenly or simultaneously. Of course the engines don’t need to be shut down for an aircraft to have insufficient power to fly. I’m sure that the only reason we’re looking at this is because of the questions regarding the RAT. If it weren’t for that, the internet accident investigation would be over.