Air France passenger jet drops off radar

I might get flamed for this, but the way I read it is, the crash is caused by inadequate training and/or procedures, or at the very least, set procedures were not followed. This then led to pilot errors and the eventual loss of the aircraft with all souls on board. I would guess that this is also where the culture of the airline management/workforce comes into play.

I don't think you're far off the mark, but I do not see Airbus as innocent victims of this either.

Firstly, Airbus aircraft tend to desensitise pilots to many of the cues around them. Some rather important clues are intentionally removed (for instance the joysticks have no feel, nor are they interconnected, so you cannot readily tell what inputs are being made by the other pilot). Whilst it is an aircraft system that works well, when all is going well, it fails quite readily, and will drop back to reversionary flight control laws...in which case it can be appreciably more difficult to operate than a traditional aircraft. So, it's either easy or hard, but nothing in the middle.

But, because the aircraft is sold as being easy to fly, it is also leading to an intentional dumbing down of the pilot training world. Management gurus tout 200 hour pilots as being suitable to operate as first officers, when in reality all they are useful for is occupying a few feet of space that could otherwise contain air. They do not have, nor will they EVER develop, the skills that are needed on the days when things go wrong. And contrary to what manufacturers and management would like you to think...things go wrong regularly.
 
Out of interest, @jb747 - in your opinion do carriers sufficiently train or test Airbus pilots in how to fly when under any of the Alternate Laws? Can an Airbus plane be reasonably flown for an entire sector without (any/most/some of) the automation systems operational?
 
I'll tell you what, I hope my flyophobic wife never reads any of this, or I'll never get her into an aircraft again.I love flying, but reading through some of this scares the cough out of me.
Well at least not Air France.In lay terms, how controversial were the findings? Anyone? Were there fundamental errors in play here?
 
Air France says :- "At this stage, there is no reason to question the crew’s technical skills. "

So a crew that flies a perfectly safe jet into the ocean just 4 minutes after the autopilot disengaged are showing adequate technical skills?

Maybe Air France think they can stick their heads in the sand forever until the grieving relatives give up on holding them to account. Nice tactic.

I think that is enough justification to put Air France on my no-fly list.
 
jb747, I echo the thanks from others here, in taking the time to give us insights into the information coming out.

Air France have always been on my no fly card...

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Out of interest, @jb747 - in your opinion do carriers sufficiently train or test Airbus pilots in how to fly when under any of the Alternate Laws?

I can only speak for the one that I work for, and for them, I'd say yes.

Can an Airbus plane be reasonably flown for an entire sector without (any/most/some of) the automation systems operational?

Yes. It really should not present too much of a problem at all. Alternate law itself is more or less a non event, as the aircraft will still autotrim, the autothrust may still be available, and so too should an autopilot.

Alternate law II, is a bit more problematic, as most likely no automatics will work, other than pitch trim.

Direct law isn't all that much different, but now no automatics will work, including the pitch trim. And, because the use of pitch trim never happens in normal ops, people will forget that it exists. Plus, unlike those aircraft in which you use it all the time, it isn't on a button under your thumb, but rather it's a switch in the middle of the centre panel. The ANZ 320 accident had some level of pitch trim/direct law involvement.

The aircraft can be quite twitchy at altitude. You need to be very gentle, and make tiny control movements. The lack of any form of aileron trim can become a real problem. It is quite tiring. I tried it for 5 hours last year....
 
And obviously came through it with with more knowledge than you started the flight :eek:


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Management gurus tout 200 hour pilots as being suitable to operate as first officers, ... They do not have, nor will they EVER develop, the skills that are needed on the days when things go wrong.

jb747 - just to challenge you slightly on this - why do you claim that they will never develop the skills to deal with things when they go wrong? That's a pretty big call. I agree they wont have the experience at the time they take on teh FO role but over time surely they will gain the required experience. A 500 hour pilot has to have 200 hours at some point...
 
jb747 - just to challenge you slightly on this - why do you claim that they will never develop the skills to deal with things when they go wrong? That's a pretty big call. I agree they wont have the experience at the time they take on teh FO role but over time surely they will gain the required experience. A 500 hour pilot has to have 200 hours at some point...
Because the environment that they operate in isn't one in which they will ever get to practice the things that come naturally to people outside of airliners. They will learn how to be good systems operators, but they will never learn how to be pilots. Manual flying is effectively banned in many environments (and pretty well everywhere in the cruise). The aircraft themselves do not allow excess bank, stalling, etc...so that if you ever see it...it will be for real, the system will be degraded in some way, and you simply will never have done it enough for the recovery actions to become a reflex (which is why so many pilots have real trouble understanding how the AF447 pilots never put in stall recovery inputs). As an example, I have about 1,000 hours on the A380...but only about 5 hours of that entails actual manual flying (and a large part of that came as a result of a series of failures on one flight). My personal starting point on this aircraft is the better part of 20,000 hours, of which about 2,000 would be actually flying...and my skills will degrade due to lack of practice, but at least they existed in the first place.

It's worth noting that my employer recognised this as an issue around ten years ago, and as a result, banned what was called 'vertical promotion'. It had been possible to join, become a 744 SO, wait for a while and become a 744 FO, and wait for a long while (which never actually happened) and become a 744 Captain. At no point in that sequence would you ever operate an aircraft in an environment with lots of take offs and landings...in which lots and lots of non cruise skills are required. The opportunity does not exist in the longer haul aircraft. So, if you wanted to be promoted, you had to move to the 737 or 767.

So..what about the simulator? Well, firstly you must remember, that although they are very clever devices they do not actually simulate anything, but rather they do what they are told will happen. If you fail a system, the sim response may well be quite different to that to of the aircraft. They are flight simulators, not system simulators (system sims exist at the manufacturers, but I'm told they don't necessarily look anything like a coughpit). They are great for practicing the procedures, and for common emergencies, but, they are not cost effective ways of teaching people to push forward in a stall, or that hitting the ground hurts, or that the sky should be above you. They cost a couple of thousand dollars an hour to run, and are busy 24 hours a day. The incident that I alluded to earlier involved an air data computer failure, followed a few hours later by a probe heat failure on a side slip sensor. The aircraft saw that as a dual ADC failure, dropped to alternate law II, and lost the autopilots and flight directors. At the time, the sim, if given an identical failure sequence, responded quite differently, going to alternate I, with the automatics still available. The sim was subsequently updated by the maker to include what had now become know as the actual aircraft behaviour.

Perhaps worth noting too, that of the three major QF incidents over the past few years (QF30, 72, and 32), two involved the loss of the automatics...so the need for real flying skills isn't dead yet.
 
Like so many newspaper reports, it's really light on any of the detail that you'd need to actually work out what was happening. Autopilot disconnects, in their own right, are a yawn event. It's hard to imagine that an autopilot disconnect/failure becomes a headline.

Airbus have an interesting response to any excedence of the max speed. In normal law, it will pitch up, in an attempt to control the speed, overriding pilot inputs if it wants. In so doing, it may well leave its assigned altitude (who thought that was a good idea?)....but a 3,000 foot deviation...no way. 300 perhaps.
 
This issue of Pilot vs. Airbus is worrying. I still think that the Air France crew stuffed up big time, but there is also the problem of the aircraft thinking it knows best and possibly making decisions that directly contravene the pilot's inputs. At the very least it is allowed to work the controls all the way to the stops, and then may hand back the plane to the pilot without mentioning what it has done.

When the full report comes out I hope it gives a detailed comparison of what the pilot(s) were instructing via controls and what the plane was deciding to do in response (or of its own volition for that matter). Any flight controls that are at or near the stops should be flashing red so that even a bleary-eyed captain can see what the story is when entering a coughpit in crisis.

There should also be backups for the most sensitive equipment, so if the pitot tubes ice up or start giving suspect readings, then why can't the airspeed be guesstimated using GPS + flight vectors? Seems like too many crews are becoming dependent on automatics that can tell lies.

And if the plane is smart enough to know that it is in a stall then why isn't it smart enough to get the crew out of the schidt?
 
There should also be backups for the most sensitive equipment, so if the pitot tubes ice up or start giving suspect readings, then why can't the airspeed be guesstimated using GPS + flight vectors? Seems like too many crews are becoming dependent on automatics that can tell lies.

How would you measure airspeed using GPS? Airspeed is the speed at which the aircraft passes through the air, not ground speed, AFAIK the only way to measure this is through a pitot static system, given it had redundant systems that may have been faulty there is no other way of measuring this datum, as the actual air around the aircraft in terms of speed is not measured by any other means in accurate form.
 
There should also be backups for the most sensitive equipment, so if the pitot tubes ice up or start giving suspect readings, then why can't the airspeed be guesstimated using GPS + flight vectors? Seems like too many crews are becoming dependent on automatics that can tell lies.

As markis10 mentioned, there are backup systems and I'm pretty sure there are also procedures which pilots are meant to follow in the event that speed indicators fail...

Whilst there are loads of different theories as to why the pilots did this and didn't do that, what is known is that the computer was sending alert messages one after the other.
It is extremely difficult to stay calm in such a situation (when a new error is appearing every couple of seconds) and whilst people and pilots can ask "why", I expect it is a situtation that unless you've been in yourself, you can't really understand.
 
How would you measure airspeed using GPS? Airspeed is the speed at which the aircraft passes through the air, not ground speed, AFAIK the only way to measure this is through a pitot static system, given it had redundant systems that may have been faulty there is no other way of measuring this datum, as the actual air around the aircraft in terms of speed is not measured by any other means in accurate form.

It would take me about 5 minutes to come up with a formula that used the known ground (GPS) speed and factored in the last reliable airspeed and rate of ascent/descent to give a pretty good estimate. This is the behaviour many land GPS devices use when travelling through tunnels (though I believe the more sophisticated also use gyroscopes to improve accuracy).

What I am saying is that rather than give no sensible reading because the primary and backup systems disagree violently, a degraded reading (or even just pure ground speed at worst) would confirm whether the aircraft is speeding up or slowing down. And for dumb-dumbs like the AF crew, a panic button that invoked all the available systems to establish level flight would also be useful.
 
It would take me about 5 minutes to come up with a formula that used the known ground (GPS) speed and factored in the last reliable airspeed and rate of ascent/descent to give a pretty good estimate. This is the behaviour many land GPS devices use when travelling through tunnels (though I believe the more sophisticated also use gyroscopes to improve accuracy).

That might work for the first few minutes, but what happens when the airspeed changes?
I'm pretty sure there is already a procedure for dealing with loss of airspeed indication, AFAIK it basically involves setting a certain throttle power and setting a specific angel of attack. This keeps the plane within the required airspeed as the jetstreams change.



And for dumb-dumbs like the AF crew, a panic button that invoked all the available systems to establish level flight would also be useful.
With the plane unsure about quite a few of its' inputs, what inputs would a "panic button" trust? It's not like the two pilots said to AF "Mind if we take an A330 for a spin?" These where two guys who had been trained in flying the A330 and knew what they where doing.
 
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I'm not so sure, I'm not so sure they even knew they had stalled or what was happening.

Matt

Yes - it was a dark night and they had instrument problems, very difficult to know exactly what was going on...
 
It would take me about 5 minutes to come up with a formula that used the known ground (GPS) speed and factored in the last reliable airspeed and rate of ascent/descent to give a pretty good estimate. This is the behaviour many land GPS devices use when travelling through tunnels (though I believe the more sophisticated also use gyroscopes to improve accuracy).

What I am saying is that rather than give no sensible reading because the primary and backup systems disagree violently, a degraded reading (or even just pure ground speed at worst) would confirm whether the aircraft is speeding up or slowing down. And for dumb-dumbs like the AF crew, a panic button that invoked all the available systems to establish level flight would also be useful.

Any attempted calculation of airspeed such as that you describe would be useless, it presents datum for historic purposes only and would not have been helpful in the scenario for the Air France Jet, simply because of the turbulence in a storm cell (updraft/downdraft) and the very nature of 3D conditions, neither of which are encountered in your GPS analogy. Factor in most jets are continually changing heading, and even in a static wind vector the estimate is degrading in accuracy before the calculation is completed, hence why we still use a static/pitot system that has been around for years.

One of the main contributors to aircraft crashes are 2 D navigation in a 3D world, or controlled collision with coughulorock!
 
It would take me about 5 minutes to come up with a formula that used the known ground (GPS) speed and factored in the last reliable airspeed and rate of ascent/descent to give a pretty good estimate. This is the behaviour many land GPS devices use when travelling through tunnels (though I believe the more sophisticated also use gyroscopes to improve accuracy).
I sort of agreed with you for a moment.

Then I remembered that people much smarter than me work on this stuff every day and would have likely already thought of this.

Also my land based GPS is a piece of cough when it loses it's lock on a GPS signal.

Something is not always better than nothing.
 

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