QF crew in J cabin - how appropriate?

[Max Samuels]

Ok so this has probably been discussed before but at risk of being labelled a Qantas-basher I wanted to share my recent experience and see what others think.

I have always been a little iffy about Qantas' policy of putting their crew, in uniform, in business class when they are paxing between cities. Now, I am aware that this is all to do with the agreements they have with their unions etc and on some level I understand this. I just wanted to point out that in many other service industries, i.e. hotels, staff are not even allowed to use the main entrance of the hotel! Or leave the hotel while wearing their uniform. In fact, many hotels won't even allow their staff to eat or drink in the hotel restaurants even when they are off duty. The reason for this being that the guests may not want to be hanging around the staff (and vice versa). I know this to be true as I worked in a 5-star hotel in Sydney for many many years when I was at uni and this was the policy of them all. We did however have reciprocal rights with neighbouring hotels, meaning that we could drink at hotel X, and hotel X staff could drink in our hotel. All at a discount so everyone was happy.

But I digress. The other day I was flying SYD-MEL in J. It was an A330 with 6 rows of J = 36 seats. There were only 6 passengers (including myself) and 10 crew, travelling in uniform. When the dinner service came around the operating crew spent so long gossiping to the non-operating crew that by the time the cart came around to me (seated in row 6) the fight was half over. I was only offered a drink top-up once. The rest of the time the CSM was seated on the arm rest of the empty chair in front of me, gossiping to the non-operating crew member seated across the aisle. They were talking about work, and complaining about this and that... lots of shop talk. And I could hear every word.

Now my question is this: is it really appropriate for crew to focus their attention on the non-op crew rather than the passengers? Is it appropriate to carry on work-related conversations within earshot of paying passengers?

Quite frankly I find the whole thing uncomfortable and unprofessional. Hotels seem to have got it right - why can't Qantas? If crew are to travel in uniform with passengers, they should try and be as invisible as possible. Even better, make them change into civies. Even McDonald's staff have to cover up their uniform if they are not working!

 

[Homer]

Now my question is this: is it really appropriate for crew to focus their attention on the non-op crew rather than the passengers? Is it appropriate to carry on work-related conversations within earshot of paying passengers?

I agree with you 100%. I've witnessed this type of thing myself and I find it really annoying. In my opinion it demonstrates poor training and a bad attitude by the staff but there must be some management slackness involved for it to be allowed to continue. You wouldn't get this on an asian or middle eastern airline.

 

[harvyk]

To answer your questions,

I think the policy of some 5 star hotels can be a little over the top, certainly have the back entrance for staff members on duty whilst they are in their uniforms, but outside that they are normal human beings. Some hotel policies in my opinion denigrate staff outside of working hours. (My wife used to work for Hyatt Canberra).


Now onto crew deadheading in J, I don't have a problem with that, they are travelling for business such the same as any other business person on that plane, and even in uniform still not a problem.

Where there is a problem is when it stops crew from preforming their duties, which in this case it seemed to. What I would suggest is sending some feedback to QF about this, explaining how the crew where engaged with gossip with the deadheaders, rather than doing their jobs...

 

[markis10]

Unlike hotel staff and McDonalds staff, Qantas crew are there to control the cabin in an emergency and work up to 20 hours on a shift, when dead heading I am glad they are in J as it means they will be rested and in a better condition to do their duties.

I am not sure what the issue is, the uniform is no big deal and the fact they took a little while to get to you could have been easily fixed by allocating yourself are more forward seat ( I find the meal service timely in 1A ) , when you get dinner is only important if you dont get time to eat it IMHO.

I also dont see the issue with crew having a chat, again there is no mention of you being ignored or not receiving the advertised service, only the impression that you felt you were more important than the dead heading crew when it came to their attention for the duration of the flight.

 

[drron]

Ok so this has probably been discussed before but at risk of being labelled a Qantas-basher I wanted to share my recent experience and see what others think.

I have always been a little iffy about Qantas' policy of putting their crew, in uniform, in business class when they are paxing between cities. Now, I am aware that this is all to do with the agreements they have with their unions etc and on some level I understand this. I just wanted to point out that in many other service industries, i.e. hotels, staff are not even allowed to use the main entrance of the hotel! Or leave the hotel while wearing their uniform. In fact, many hotels won't even allow their staff to eat or drink in the hotel restaurants even when they are off duty. The reason for this being that the guests may not want to be hanging around the staff (and vice versa). I know this to be true as I worked in a 5-star hotel in Sydney for many many years when I was at uni and this was the policy of them all. We did however have reciprocal rights with neighbouring hotels, meaning that we could drink at hotel X, and hotel X staff could drink in our hotel. All at a discount so everyone was happy.

But I digress. The other day I was flying SYD-MEL in J. It was an A330 with 6 rows of J = 36 seats. There were only 6 passengers (including myself) and 10 crew, travelling in uniform. When the dinner service came around the operating crew spent so long gossiping to the non-operating crew that by the time the cart came around to me (seated in row 6) the fight was half over. I was only offered a drink top-up once. The rest of the time the CSM was seated on the arm rest of the empty chair in front of me, gossiping to the non-operating crew member seated across the aisle. They were talking about work, and complaining about this and that... lots of shop talk. And I could hear every word.

Now my question is this: is it really appropriate for crew to focus their attention on the non-op crew rather than the passengers? Is it appropriate to carry on work-related conversations within earshot of paying passengers?

Quite frankly I find the whole thing uncomfortable and unprofessional. Hotels seem to have got it right - why can't Qantas? If crew are to travel in uniform with passengers, they should try and be as invisible as possible. Even better, make them change into civies. Even McDonald's staff have to cover up their uniform if they are not working!

Was the highlighted part a Freudian slip?
But I agree entirely.Even on BA the paying Pax will be served first(and asked their preferences if some choices in limited quantity).In my admittedly limited experiences.

 

[Homer]

only the impression that you felt you were more important than the dead heading crew

The OP *is* more important than the dead heading crew. That's what is so infuriating about Aussie customer service; that many staff find it so difficult to accept that they are there to serve customers.

 

[Max Samuels]

Unlike hotel staff and McDonalds staff, Qantas crew are there to control the cabin in an emergency and work up to 20 hours on a shift, when dead heading I am glad they are in J as it means they will be rested and in a better condition to do their duties.

I am not sure what the issue is, the uniform is no big deal and the fact they took a little while to get to you could have been easily fixed by allocating yourself are more forward seat ( I find the meal service timely in 1A ) , when you get dinner is only important if you dont get time to eat it IMHO.

I also dont see the issue with crew having a chat, again there is no mention of you being ignored or not receiving the advertised service, only the impression that you felt you were more important than the dead heading crew when it came to their attention for the duration of the flight.

A 20 hour domestic shift? I think not. In answer to your other question....

1A was not available - it was blocked for crew.

I don't know what kind of industry you work in, but if it is one where you have customers I would like to think you put them above your own interests.

I didn't say I felt more important - why are you projecting yourself on to me?

And finally, I cannot believe that you really believe this line of cough about "safety" and being tired and having to be alert in an emergency... yawn. This has been done to death and everyone one pretty much knows that Qantas use this as an excuse for bad service.

There are harder jobs out there than a domestic FA. Which have longer hours. And just as "dangerous".

Anyway this is beside the point. As another poster mentioned you would never see this on an Asian airline. And believe me there are crew travelling all the time. They are just a little more "discrete".

 

[Max Samuels]

Was the highlighted part a Freudian slip?
But I agree entirely.Even on BA the paying Pax will be served first(and asked their preferences if some choices in limited quantity).In my admittedly limited experiences.

Haha no I didn't highlight it - it just did it by itself for some reason.

But you reminded me of something.... this issue has been annoying me for years and years. And the other night it was so in my face that I felt compelled to write about it. But it reminds me of an even worse experience.

Several years back my partner and I were travelling SYD-BNE in J. It was a 767. There were about 10 off duty crew and we were seated in row 5. It was a full flight. Anyway when they finally got to us for dinner, the salmon was "sold out"! Now we sat there and watched as they served all the non-op crew first, and I remember taking note they were all ordering salmon and I even said to my partner "I hope they have some left." Anyway, we accepted the alternative.... 30 minutes later when I got up to use the toilet, what did I see in the galley?? The on-duty FAs stuffing their little faces with SALMON!

Now, I challenge anybody to disagree with me on this! Is this an example of good customer service?????? :!:

 

[markis10]

A 20 hour domestic shift? I think not.

I think so, appendix B

http://flightattendants.qantas.com.au/Files/Qantas_Domestic_EBA_2008.aspx

You may wish to read the section about Duty travel while you are at it, they dont have to wear the uniform but must have it available. the grass is not always greener on the other side if you do the research or have been there yourself.

 

[docjames]

No issue with crew travelling in any class.

Agree 100% that the (paying - points or $$) passengers should not get a second rate service, just becuase the (working) crew want to gossip.

I would have thought it reasonable to give priority to the paying pax for
- seat selection
- meals / drinks

If there's time left over and passenger's needs are met throughout the flight, gossip away (discreetly, not so the whole cabin can hear).

 

[Max Samuels]

I think so, appendix B

http://flightattendants.qantas.com.au/Files/Qantas_Domestic_EBA_2008.aspx

You may wish to read the section about Duty travel while you are at it, they dont have to wear the uniform but must have it available. the grass is not always greener on the other side if you do the research or have been there yourself.

Hmmm... to me it only says 9h45m for DOM. I don't know why people always get hysterical about this. I have many friends that are FAs. While I don't envy the longhaul ones at all, I am constantly amused at how little the domestic guys usually work. Occasionally there is something a bit far away. But often it is very civilised e.g. SYD-MEL-SYD-MEL-SYD hometime.

Anyway this argument is pointless. We will have to agree to disagree. Your argument is that FAs work very hard and deserve everything they get and are just as important (if not more) that the paying passengers. I could even go further and say that you give the impression that in your world passengers are just an annoying part of the job.

My argument is that the passenger comes first. And that passengers ARE the job.

 

[markis10]

Hmmm... to me it only says 9h45m for DOM.

....
My argument is that the passenger comes first. And that passengers ARE the job.

Have a look at regional, up to 24 hours when dead heading after OP:

I agree the customer comes first, QF may believe a crew dead heading are customers in that context, certainly on JQ and QFlink the crew are not employees of the operating airline as such. Does that make them customers if their employer had to buy a ticket?

We will certainly have to agree to disagree, you will always get the good with the bad, some consistency would be nice though when it comes to service.

 

[Max Samuels]

We will certainly have to agree to disagree, you will always get the good with the bad, some consistency would be nice though when it comes to service.

Yeah - consistently bad! Hehehe... no just kidding but I couldn't resist the opening.

I think QF are consistently inconsistent.

Let's just call them beige.

 

[anat0l]

And finally, I cannot believe that you really believe this line of cough about "safety" and being tired and having to be alert in an emergency... yawn. This has been done to death and everyone one pretty much knows that Qantas use this as an excuse for bad service.

There are harder jobs out there than a domestic FA. Which have longer hours. And just as "dangerous".

I find that rebuttal extremely cynical.

Name jobs which are harder than the domestic FA which have longer hours which are just as or even more dangerous. No, you cannot count you as the executive in a marketing agency working 16 hour days to meet deadlines and appease your clients.

Just because a job may be longer and more dangerous than a domestic FA's job doesn't make it so that fatigue is not a significant contributor to workplace accidents. Of course, it would help a lot if the working hours of FAs (and people in other industries with similar hours and loads) were reworked to avoid this kind of risk.

As another poster mentioned you would never see this on an Asian airline. And believe me there are crew travelling all the time. They are just a little more "discrete".

Once again, I think most people are convinced that Asian airlines always do a better job.

Where do they travel and how do their travel policies work?

Even if you were to have staff in civvies and being discreet, when it comes to meal service how do you deal with that? If you were in a cabin filled with people in civvies and they got to you and they ran out of salmon, you might be thinking, "oh well, the front people got it first", however if you realised the people in civvies travelling were dead-heading crew then you might just blow up all the same! But if we changed to order of serving so that those that were crew got served last then that's not very discreet any more, isn't it?

Several years back my partner and I were travelling SYD-BNE in J. It was a 767. There were about 10 off duty crew and we were seated in row 5. It was a full flight. Anyway when they finally got to us for dinner, the salmon was "sold out"! Now we sat there and watched as they served all the non-op crew first, and I remember taking note they were all ordering salmon and I even said to my partner "I hope they have some left." Anyway, we accepted the alternative.... 30 minutes later when I got up to use the toilet, what did I see in the galley?? The on-duty FAs stuffing their little faces with SALMON!

Now, I challenge anybody to disagree with me on this! Is this an example of good customer service?????? :!:

I won't challenge you on that one - that isn't good customer service. Heard of a case of it before. Never had it happen to me (well, I haven't been in a situation where they run out of something).

My argument is that the passenger comes first. And that passengers ARE the job.

Passengers come first on the proviso they act like proper human beings.

 

[JohnK]

Now my question is this: is it really appropriate for crew to focus their attention on the non-op crew rather than the passengers? Is it appropriate to carry on work-related conversations within earshot of paying passengers?

No it is not appropriate. The customer always comes first.

Dead-heading crew should be less noticeable, allow passengers first choice of premium seats (not like the recent story where a passenger was moved from premium economy bulkhead to middle seat further back so 2 dead-heading crew can sit next to each other) and also be served meals last.

And in my opinion (not sure if other passengers have noticed) dead-heading crew should lose the arrogant attitude when travelling business class.

 

[Max Samuels]

No it is not appropriate. The customer always comes first.

Dead-heading crew should be less noticeable, allow passengers first choice of premium seats (not like the recent story where a passenger was moved from premium economy bulkhead to middle seat further back so 2 dead-heading crew can sit next to each other) and also be served meals last.

And in my opinion (not sure if other passengers have noticed) dead-heading crew should lose the arrogant attitude when travelling business class.

Thank God someone with some common sense! I often wonder if customer service has truly become so poor that to expect anything else is unreasonable.

I don't think I expect too much from an airline when I travel. My list of expectations is more or less this:

1) I expect to be able to choose a seat, and I understand that if they are all taken that I get what is left
2) I expect that when I use the call button (which isn't very often) that somebody comes to me within a reasonable amount of time (10 minutes is not acceptable)
3) I expect that I am treated with courtesy
4) I expect that my needs are met with a smile
5) I expect the AVOD system to work

 

[cove]

I have been with QF staff in First as well as families of staff and I do not see this as a problem.
They should get best available at the last minute so no paying passenger misses out.
Recently the First cabin has been getting filled to Los Angeles and this is way better than half empty.i

 

[drron]

I have just remembered another example.On an AA flight JFK-LHR in F I was in row2,infront of me in row1 was the just retired CEO of American eagle.He told the FA to make sure the other pax got their choice of main course.I checked with FA that I had heard right.I had.Now that is the right attitude to customer service.

 

[anat0l]

Thank God someone with some common sense!

You wouldn't be implying that the rest of us (bar JohnK) are nonsensical or lacking common sense just because only one person has fully validated everything you said, right?

1) I expect to be able to choose a seat, and I understand that if they are all taken that I get what is left
2) I expect that when I use the call button (which isn't very often) that somebody comes to me within a reasonable amount of time (10 minutes is not acceptable)
3) I expect that I am treated with courtesy
4) I expect that my needs are met with a smile
5) I expect the AVOD system to work

That's more or less mine, too.

In my experience on QF, I get those expectations met or exceeded around 97% of the time.

Dead-heading crew should be less noticeable, allow passengers first choice of premium seats (not like the recent story where a passenger was moved from premium economy bulkhead to middle seat further back so 2 dead-heading crew can sit next to each other) and also be served meals last.

Once again, as I said to Max, it is almost impossible to make dead-heading crew less noticeable unless you treat them like regular pax. Which may mean dispose with the galley gossip, but still may mean you miss out on your meal choice.

Fair enough that pax should not be reseated out of preferred seats for crew. In fact, unless there are clear forcible reasons, a pax should always be given a reason and a choice (i.e. a right to both accept or refuse) whether to move or not, whether it be for a crew or another pax.

And in my opinion (not sure if other passengers have noticed) dead-heading crew should lose the arrogant attitude when travelling business class.

Never noticed. In fact, in my experiences, dead-heading crew rarely talk extensively to the service crew (even in the galley) and keep mainly to themselves with no more noise than a couple of regular travelling pax. Certainly they should be mindful of what they are saying whilst around other pax.

 

[Max Samuels]

not like the recent story where a passenger was moved from premium economy bulkhead to middle seat further back so 2 dead-heading crew can sit next to each other

Is that true?? Terrible. You know I had a similar thing happen to me last year. I was flying BNE-PER with my mum in Y. When we checked in online we chose the very last row, 2 seats together on the left (I think it was 56A/B).

Anyway when we got on I noticed our seats were part of the 4 seats that get curtained off for crew rest.

Ok, so you may want to sit down for this bit as this is where the story gets very uncomfortable.

While the plane is still boarding, a FA comes up to us and says "can i look at your boarding passes?" We show her. She checks and re-checks the seat number. She goes away.

Then a few moments later another FA comes up to us and says "are you guys in the right seats?" Checks our BPs and then goes away.

So we sit there, and watch as the FAs discretely (at least they thought they were discreet) communicated with each other through various hand signals, trying to find alternative seating for us.

We are then approached by yet another FA, all smiley, who says "would you like to move to the back (middle) row? Plenty of room to stretch out."

I replied: "no thanks we are happy here. I want a window."

She then rants about how we are in "their" seats and that we should never have been assigned them etc etc. That they need them for rest (on a 9am flight to Perth).

So I said to her, "well if there is another pair of seats together with a window we are happy to move."

And do you know what she said to us?She says "oh, is this your subtle way of asking to be moved to business class?"

What a nasty piece of work. Anyway they ended up moving a few single PAX so we could sit together just so that they could have their rest area for a 5hr domestic flight at 9am. Not even a thank you.

Then when we had moved, a FA came past us and we heard her calling out to another FA "did those pax get out of our seats yet?"

I think she could be heard for about 20 rows.

Not very good form in my opinion.