Ask The Pilot

[AviatorInsight]

Question for the pilots… as a passenger, if you see this, what can you do? Do you assume the captain knows what they are doing? That aircraft will alert to being improperly configured at some point before takeoff? Do you attempt to notify cabin crew (likely difficult, and even if you were at a crewed exit, would the crew act?) Or do you just hope for the best?

Reading the comments it appears the pilots didnt file a safety report, but the passenger sent the video to the airline, which subsequently did. The wetlease arrangements - and allegedly the captain as well - were terminated.

If I’m a passenger? No. I will assume the crew forgot to taxi out with the flaps down. You could attempt to notify the crew by continuously ringing the call bell, but this is a 737 and unless you’re at the very front or the very back, you wouldn’t be able to tell them directly.

The aircraft will tell you with a blaring Take Off Config warning horn if you push the thrust levers up which, to me is exactly what happened. But to then put them down and subsequently continue the take off is shocking.

I’m glad the passenger reported it to the airline.

*side note: the only time you would taxi out with the flaps up is if the taxi route is through ice, snow, slush or standing water in low temperatures or if precipitation is falling with temperatures below
freezing. Taxiing with the flaps extended subjects the flaps and flap drives to contamination. The leading edge devices are also susceptible to slush accumulation.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Thanks jb747 and Aviatorinsight.

So as a passenger we assume (hope) that the final safeguard will be the configuration warning at the start of takeoff. And hope no other issues have disabled that warning (Swiss Cheese).

 

[Quickstatus]

As a passenger I don’t see that there is much you could do at the time.

If I recall, apparently the fellow was flying with his father who apparently was an 747 captain. The father said his son tried to run up to the front to try to let the pilots know.

 

[jb747]

*side note: the only time you would taxi out with the flaps up is if the taxi route is through ice, snow, slush or standing water in low temperatures or if precipitation is falling with temperatures below
freezing. Taxiing with the flaps extended subjects the flaps and flap drives to contamination. The leading edge devices are also susceptible to slush accumulation.

And if you do taxi out like that, the checklist should either not start, or be held at flaps. You can't go past something and come back.

 

[Quickstatus]

Retired ATR captain and YTuber questions the Germanwings accident report.

Comments appreciated

 

[jb747]

The emergency access code had to be actively denied. About as intentional as you get.

 

[elanshin]

@jb and AI
Just came across this landing in coughet
Curious about your comments on it and how hard of a landing does it need to be to have the nosegear come off like that?

https://twitter.com/x/status/2031675483595682228

 

[RooFlyer]

The emergency access code had to be actively denied. About as intentional as you get.

Unless the keypad was faulty (#2), which was mentioned. No start-of-day check required, either.

We talk of the Swiss cheese holes lining up of airline faults/errors, each rare/unlikely. FWIW I think this video seems to make a case of that, not involving intentionality.

 

[jb747]

It's a case that is built on wishful thinking, and likes.

 

[jb747]

@jb and AI
Just came across this landing in coughet
Curious about your comments on it and how hard of a landing does it need to be to have the nosegear come off like that?

The google AI answers this pretty well...Porpoising a dangerous, pilot-induced oscillation (PIO) where the nose repeatedly rises and falls during landing, often caused by over-controlling, improper speed/trim, or excessive flare. It often results from the pilot trying to "force" the aircraft onto the runway.

The G increases with each hit, but could easily be in the 3-5 region. Nose gear is not meant to land on.

 

[Beano]

The google AI answers this pretty well...Porpoising a dangerous, pilot-induced oscillation (PIO) where the nose repeatedly rises and falls during landing, often caused by over-controlling, improper speed/trim, or excessive flare. It often results from the pilot trying to "force" the aircraft onto the runway.

The G increases with each hit, but could easily be in the 3-5 region. Nose gear is not meant to land on.

Saw that recently on an Air disaster programme where a DHL cargo aircraft did just that and flipped, resulting in fatalities.

 

[jb747]

An interesting find in Thames, NZ.

Pulled in to this town looking for a coffee, and how could I resist a cafe called "The Aviator". I thought it might have some pictures, but it was way better than that.

 

[RSD]

An interesting find in Thames, NZ.

Pulled in to this town looking for a coffee, and how could I resist a cafe called "The Aviator". I thought it might have some pictures, but it was way better than that.

View attachment 500531View attachment 500532View attachment 500533View attachment 500534View attachment 500535View attachment 500536

Very nice!!

 

[Flyingaroundincircles]

An interesting find in Thames, NZ.

Pulled in to this town looking for a coffee, and how could I resist a cafe called "The Aviator". I thought it might have some pictures, but it was way better than that.

Awesome!
He used to be based in Tauranga and I went along a number of times with different groups to enjoy - its an incredible setup. They've had quite a decent number of ex-military pilots there over the years which he may not have mentioned. Top sort of outfit & was sorry when they moved.

My wife still grumbles about how I shot her down - a game I was finally able to beat her at.

Edit: how did you go in the simulator?

 

[mjt57]

An interesting find in Thames, NZ.

Pulled in to this town looking for a coffee, and how could I resist a cafe called "The Aviator". I thought it might have some pictures, but it was way better than that.

View attachment 500532

Are these commercially available or something that they cobbled together? One of those should be mandatory equipment in every man cave.

Which aircraft did you fly? And what is the VR setup like?

 

[Flyingaroundincircles]

Are these commercially available or something that they cobbled together? One of those should be mandatory equipment in every man cave.

Which aircraft did you fly? And what is the VR setup like?

I hope no-one minds me jumping in - not a (proper) pilot but I have the answers!:

FAQ's | The Aviator Experience

Discover all the answers you need at The Aviator Experience FAQ page! From booking to VR flight fun, we make your visit easy and exciting.

www.theaviator.co.nz

https://www.theaviator.co.nz/flight-prices

They can do up to 6 simultaneously, all in the same 'game'. I think it uses the DCS software. There's plenty of aircraft options; I had a couple of goes in the Spitfire & managed to land the Hornet on the carrier, albeit rather firmly.

If its all the same setup as when I saw it - its full VR headset, sitting in the seat as pictured. He was working on a motion F-18 simulator at one point as well - I follow his Facebook page under the same name.

 

[mjt57]

They can do up to 6 simultaneously, all in the same 'game'. I think it uses the DCS software. T

So, a tad more realistic than MS Flight Simulator 24 on my Xbox Series X, eh?

To JB, what is that outfit that you have on over your strides?

 

[Dr Bob]

So, a tad more realistic than MS Flight Simulator 24 on my Xbox Series X, eh?

To JB, what is that outfit that you have on over your strides?

I would it suggest it relates to the image taken out the front.

 

[jb747]

Awesome!
He used to be based in Tauranga and I went along a number of times with different groups to enjoy - its an incredible setup. They've had quite a decent number of ex-military pilots there over the years which he may not have mentioned. Top sort of outfit & was sorry when they moved.

Nice bloke and very interesting to chat to. He said he'd had quite a few people through with large amounts of experience. Certainly when I said 25,000 hours, his ears pricked up.

My wife still grumbles about how I shot her down - a game I was finally able to beat her at.

Probably not fair.

Edit: how did you go in the simulator?

I just had a fly around in the F18, and took off and landed in the F4. I am very familiar with DCS, and have recently become a mod on one of the busier servers, but I haven't done much with VR. I didn't crash.

Are these commercially available or something that they cobbled together? One of those should be mandatory equipment in every man cave.

I don't know the source of his gear, but there are various companies providing very good coughpit simulator equipment. I've got the F16 gear from a company callled Winwing.

Which aircraft did you fly? And what is the VR setup like?

F18 and F4. The VR setup was pretty good, but I'd really need the lenses to be optically corrected. Meta G3 headset which is a mid level price device, driven by a 5080. The GPU is the expensive part. You probably need to be at something like 4080 to have any really chance.

They can do up to 6 simultaneously, all in the same 'game'. I think it uses the DCS software. There's plenty of aircraft options; I had a couple of goes in the Spitfire & managed to land the Hornet on the carrier, albeit rather firmly.

DCS has many aircraft options. Some are free, including my beloved A-4. The better modules cost around $70, but can be had for about half that on sales. Like every hobby though, the cost adds up.

If its all the same setup as when I saw it - its full VR headset, sitting in the seat as pictured. He was working on a motion F-18 simulator at one point as well - I follow his Facebook page under the same name.

He mentioned the full motion setup, but also said it isn't working at the moment.

So, a tad more realistic than MS Flight Simulator 24 on my Xbox Series X, eh?

The flight models are very realistic, and depending up how serious you are, you can have a very realistic experience, even without VR. Head tracking, makes a huge difference. Also I have programmed vibration through the controls, so I can feel things like speed brake extension, or increasing angle of attack.

To JB, what is that outfit that you have on over your strides?

That's a G suit. Plugged into the aircraft, it inflates as the g increases, in an attempt to stop all of your blood ending up in your legs. It's worth about 1-1.5 g of extra tolerance before you black out. The other item, hanging on the wall, is an A-4 torso harness. That connected you to the aircraft seat, and also to the parachute. You put it on before going to the aircraft, and just fitted the plug in fittings when you got there. It's missing the life preserver component.