EC261 and UK261 Discussion: Successes and Failures

[MEL_Traveller]

That’s pretty much spot on

 

[TonyHancock]

Going by the Compensation thread on the Flyertalk BA forum, it appears to be SOP for BA customer service to 'blow claimants off'.

Just to add a slightly different perspective, I was left "stranded" in Amsterdam with a colleague in December 2017 due to severe weather (snow) and despite this being outside of EU261 BA rather generously, and without even the hint of a question, paid for a one way car rental Amsterdam to Paris, two rooms at a hotel in Paris, and two Business class Eurostar tickets to London. I suspect that this was in the days prior to BA working out I am one of those dreadful "ex EU" GGL types and of little value to them as a customer.

 

[RAM]

Thanks, as I said I'm not out of pocket thanks to PayPal, but was looking to find out what BA should have done for me (e.g. I would have thought at least refunded the extra I paid for exit rows, over and above the original tickets) and not just blown me off.

Did you arrive later than the BA scheduled time though?

If more than 4 hours (for long haul I think it is) then you can claim compensation.

This is a useful summary from The Guardian... Note it covers airlines BASED in the EU not just flights originating in...

What are your rights when flights in Europe are cancelled or delayed?

When an airline starts cancelling or delaying flights for more than three hours, passengers are entitled to compensation of €250-€600 (£230-£550) under EU rules.
The cause of the problem has to be under the airline’s control and not an ‘extraordinary circumstance’. Lack of planes/staff, flight overbooking, a strike by airline staff or an IT failure are all considered to be within the airline’s control – so compensation is payable.
Passengers on cancelled short-haul flights – up to 1,500km – are entitled to €250 or £230. For flights of 1,500km-3,500km, passengers are entitled to €400, and €600 for the longest flights (more than 3,500km).
Compensation is also payable if the plane is delayed. The payments are the same but only kick in when the plane has been delayed three hours for short flights or four hours for the longer trips. The delay is calculated against the time the plane was due to arrive.
Passengers are also entitled to ‘assistance’ under the EU rules. Short-haul passengers should receive food and water after two hours. Mid-distance passengers get help after three hours, while long-haul passengers receive it after they have been held in the terminal for four hours. If the delay is overnight, passengers should be provided with hotel accommodation but this often does not happen. This assistance should be provided irrespective of whether the delay is the airline’s fault.
The airlines have fought these compensation rules since they were introduced and passengers have had to go to court to get their money. The airlines frequently blame delays on events outside their control. Freak weather events or a last-minute strike by air traffic controllers are deemed to be outside their control. A lack of planes or staff is not.
The rules only apply to EU-based airlines or all flights that start in the EU on non-EU based carriers. What will happen after Brexit is not yet clear. Miles Brignall

 

[MEL_Traveller]

No. The OP arrived 30 minutes later than scheduled.

 

[tdimdad]

A question to the brain trust about a "hidden manufacturing error" being an extraordinary circumstance. Would this kind of situation be within the airline's maintenance department's realm and therefore seen as a technical problem rather than extraordinary safety (or any other) issue?

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Hmmm. IIRC i think finnair has pulled this excuse before? It’s very rare for an airline to try and rely on it.

I think you have two options here... either try and pursue it yourself by asking finnair for further details (exactly what is the supposed defect, and proof that it was a hidden error), or, go through one of the claims companies.

They have direct access into the airlines’ systems so know exactly what and why a delayed occurred. They’ll take 25-33% of your claim, but might be worthwhile (and if they say it’s an error, then you know it actually is one).

 

[serfty]

Given Finnair, then I'd take @MEL_Traveller 's advice.

Although, with case law, "Mechanical" is not necessarily "Extraordinary" and in general isn't.

European Court Of Justice EC 261/2004 Ruling: Mechanicals Not Considered “Extraordinary Circumstances”

European Court of Justice ruling that mechanicals are not considered “extraordinary” circumstances and airlines are required to pay compensation.

loyaltylobby.com

What If Airlines Claim Extraordinary Circumstances

Extraordinary circumstances is a term overused by airlines to get rid of their responsibility to pay compensation for delays. Find out how to deal with it.

www.claimair.com

This thread is on the BA FlyerTalk forum and is BA related but had a lot of useful information:

The 2020 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261/2004 - FlyerTalk Forums

Also, this decade old thread: Mechanical Failure - extraordinary?

 

[tdimdad]

Lot of good and clear reading in that. Thanks, Sertfy!

My friend has now outsourced this to one of those claim companies. Though, I think it's a sad situation if we have a whole service industry spun up around airlines trying to flout the regulation and it seems to have become the de facto direction that you better use them to obtain a compensation.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Agree with serfty. What is unusual here is finnair a’s claim of a manufacturing defect... something which should really be outside normal wear and tear, outside of normal maintenance. Something caused by the manufacturing process itself. I guess things like the 787 battery issues, or weaknesses in fan blades which couldn’t be picked up through maintenance.

Claims companies have their uses... easy to lodge a claim, direct access to validate your claim, fast payment, useful in cases where airlines might be using an obscure exception, saves the passenger time.

But passengers can do it themselves. I had a claim drag on for just over 12 months. Got my full €600! but that involved around five emails back and forth with the airline, and two or three hours of my time. Was that worth the extra €200? for me it was but YMMV

 

[ethernet]

Somewhat off topic but Choice Magazine points out complaints with Online retailer KOGAN in April 2009.
I then had Acer computer (.au) deny keyboard issues even though it is all over the internet, but for a different reason than say Apple. On Aliexpress my sat/H265 decoder box had an intermittent turn on, and I lost the appeal/claim because the pictures did not prove anything! Plenty of supermarket Android phones with no security updates. Making it difficult for consumers is a trend.

 

[VPS]

Hi - some friends are trying to work out whether they have a claim under EU261 when their flight was delayed.

The insurance company paid for the extra accommodation (but no extra meals) but would the fire at the Catania airport be considered an extraordinary circumstance. Their flight was with Fly Dubai

Catania airport: Terminal reopens but airlines struggle to catch up

Travel in Sicily is slowly returning to normal after three weeks of chaos.

www.euronews.com

 

[kelvedon]

Hi - some friends are trying to work out whether they have a claim under EU261 when their flight was delayed.

The insurance company paid for the extra accommodation (but no extra meals) but would the fire at the Catania airport be considered an extraordinary circumstance. Their flight was with Fly Dubai

Catania airport: Terminal reopens but airlines struggle to catch up

Travel in Sicily is slowly returning to normal after three weeks of chaos.

www.euronews.com

EU 261 does not cover extraordinary circumstances or events that could not be avoided under reasonable circumstances.
I would imagine an airport fire would be considered extraordinary event.

 

[VPS]

EU 261 does not cover extraordinary circumstances or events that could not be avoided under reasonable circumstances.
I would imagine an airport fire would be considered extraordinary event.

I thought so but they should still get a meal allowance from their insurance company.

Thanks

 

[serfty]

EU 261 does not cover extraordinary circumstances or events that could not be avoided under reasonable circumstances.
I would imagine an airport fire would be considered extraordinary event.

EU 261 does not provide for compensation in relation to flight delays caused by extraordinary circumstances or events that could not be avoided under reasonable circumstances.

EU 261 does provide for right to care for flight delays irrespective of the cause.

Such right to care (or duty of care) includes provision for various elements caused by a delayed flight such as meals, accommodation, transport, even telephone calls.

Article 9
Right to care
1. Where reference is made to this Article, passengers shall be offered free of charge:
(a) meals and refreshments in a reasonable relation to the waiting time;
(b) hotel accommodation in cases
- where a stay of one or more nights becomes necessary, or
- where a stay additional to that intended by the passenger becomes necessary;
(c) transport between the airport and place of accommodation (hotel or other).
2. In addition, passengers shall be offered free of charge two telephone calls, telex or fax messages, or e-mails.
3. In applying this Article, the operating air carrier shall pay particular attention to the needs of persons with reduced mobility and any persons accompanying them, as well as to the needs of unaccompanied children.

EUR-Lex - 32004R0261 - EN

 

[VPS]

EU 261 does not provide for compensation for flight delays caused by extraordinary circumstances or events that could not be avoided under reasonable circumstances.

EU 261 does provide for right to care for flight delays irrespective of the cause.

Such right (duty of) to care includes provision for various elements caused by a delayed flight such as meals, accomodation, transport, even telephone calls.

EUR-Lex - 32004R0261 - EN

thanks for the detail

 

[smiliemonster]

Yes, we had two instances of this in Europe this month. One plane arrived 1hr 56mins late and the other 1hr 57mins late. Compensation kicks in at the 2hr mark. Both were on BA.

 

[Forg]

The compensation for even only an A320-load of people would almost definitely push that flight's profit:loss way into the red, wouldn't it?

So while there's zero penalty before 2hrs and a huge penalty at/after 2hrs ... if you have the organisational ability to make 6 flights 1hr 55m late in order to avoid one flight being 2hr 5m late, you probably would. The cost of the staff effort required to do that would be way less than the cost of the compensation?
Although it's a negative effect in terms of sales/marketing & return customers for all 6 flights as opposed to just the one - dunno how you'd go near measuring that.

 

[moa999]

So while there's zero penalty before 2hrs and a huge penalty at/after 2hrs ... if you have the organisational ability to make 6 flights 1hr 55m late in order to avoid one flight being 2hr 5m late, you probably would.

Yep. Think this definitely happens at the major hubs. Even cross-group.

I've been on a Germanwings (now Eurowings) flight from Berlin where after a 90min delay at gate, a Lufthansa aircraft showed up to operate the flight.

 

[offshore171]

Out of interest, does anyone know how they define the arrival time? Is it based on when PAX disembark, or is it when the plane lands, literally rubber hits the runway?

At certain times at some airports it can be a 30 minute difference.

 

[Mwenenzi]

Out of interest, does anyone know how they define the arrival time? Is it based on when PAX disembark, or is it when the plane lands, literally rubber hits the runway?
At certain times at some airports it can be a 30 minute difference.

My understanding is recorded flight times are door closed / door opened.