Smoke fills cabin before plane dumps fuel in Port Phillip Bay

[Mal]

Here is an update...

Pretty scary (if accurate) no wonder Emirates are sending their top brass down under to try and calm the storm...

Very interesting article. I assume the ATSB preliminary report is due out this week, and someone has leaked bits of the investigation.

 

[oz_mark]

Very interesting article. I assume the ATSB preliminary report is due out this week, and someone has leaked bits of the investigation.

Due for release on Thursday.

 

[samh004]

Interesting read. I would assume it ultimately rests with the pilots as they entered the wrong weight into the computers that started the whole thing, regardless of how much sleep he'd had (the co-pilot could surely of double-checked the figure). Unless of course the weight they were given was wrong.

I do wonder what the pilot was doing the day before his flight, had he just come in on a flight and that's why he was tired? Or was he off enjoying himself in town, instead of resting and preparing? Will that be in the report?

I guess the pilots will look forward to the report coming out as it might vindicate them a little.

 

[straitman]

Interesting read. I would assume it ultimately rests with the pilots as they entered the wrong weight into the computers that started the whole thing, regardless of how much sleep he'd had (the co-pilot could surely of double-checked the figure). Unless of course the weight they were given was wrong.

There are often many levels in the error tree.

I do wonder what the pilot was doing the day before his flight, had he just come in on a flight and that's why he was tired? Or was he off enjoying himself in town, instead of resting and preparing? Will that be in the report?

Probably trying to get his head around sleeping in continually different time zones which is a very difficult task. The preparing bit is done at the airport not during his time off.

I guess the pilots will look forward to the report coming out as it might vindicate them a little.

Reading between the lines this could well be the case. On the surface there looks to be issues with Culture, CRM and Threat & Error Management though these are often entwined.

 

[samh004]

Probably trying to get his head around sleeping in continually different time zones which is a very difficult task. The preparing bit is done at the airport not during his time off.

That's a good point, I forgot about the different time zones.

 

[oz_mark]

Reading between the lines this could well be the case. On the surface there looks to be issues with Culture, CRM and Threat & Error Management though these are often entwined.

Not sure if it is normal or not, but I wonder if the statement thar Emirates were bringing senior managers to Australia for the reports release is an indication that there is something in the report that does not reflect well on the airline.

Emirates is sending some of its senior managers to Australia to handle the fall-out from Thursday's release of the preliminary report.

 

[straitman]

Not sure if it is normal or not, but I wonder if the statement thar Emirates were bringing senior managers to Australia for the reports release is an indication that there is something in the report that does not reflect well on the airline.

That thought had crossed my mind also. I'm not sure how normal this is or if we are just getting selective reporting again.

 

[pauly7]

That thought had crossed my mind also. I'm not sure how normal this is or if we are just getting selective reporting again.

Some more details leaking with some different views... Looks like the report will be very very interesting... and this article says directly that the Emirates execs have come to 'brief' i.e. handle the media.

Will be interesting to see how big the media reaction is. I have a feeling the horrific spread of the killer swine flu (ahem) might keep this Emirates storied off the front pages.

Weight of Emirates tail-strike plane queried | Travel News | News.com.au

 

[samh004]

Will be interesting to see how big the media reaction is. I have a feeling the horrific spread of the killer swine flu (ahem) might keep this Emirates storied off the front pages.

Cue the rumours that Emirates created swine flu so this story wouldn't be picked up on.

 

[mcm72]

Cue the rumours that Emirates created swine flu so this story wouldn't be picked up on.

i think you might be right !!!

 

[Flying Fox]

I would assume it ultimately rests with the pilots as they entered the wrong weight into the computers that started the whole thing, regardless of how much sleep he'd had (the co-pilot could surely of double-checked the figure). Unless of course the weight they were given was wrong.

I realise that this is a bit off topic but isn't it time that both Airbus & Boeing equip their aircraft with sensors so that the plane knows how much it weighs so that this type of event never occurs?

Surely a button could be pressed once all fuel, pax & cargo had been loaded for the aircraft to determine its own weight? Then the pilots enter their allocated runway for take-off and the computers could compare the numbers and determine V1 and V2 numbers etc for the pilots to double check?

I'm not a pilot so I'm happy to be corrected on the above.

 

[oz_mark]

Media conference for the tail strike is this morning at 10.30 am. I imagine that the report will beavailable shortly after that.

As for planes weighing themselves, sounds like a good idea, but I imagine given what a plane does, things like strong winds etc. would cause such sensor to be in error.

 

[straitman]

I realise that this is a bit off topic but isn't it time that both Airbus & Boeing equip their aircraft with sensors so that the plane knows how much it weighs so that this type of event never occurs?

Surely a button could be pressed once all fuel, pax & cargo had been loaded for the aircraft to determine its own weight? Then the pilots enter their allocated runway for take-off and the computers could compare the numbers and determine V1 and V2 numbers etc for the pilots to double check?

I'm not a pilot so I'm happy to be correct on the above.

Flying Fox,

Not too far off the mark except the weight is calculated then all the date, including wind, is entered into the computer which produces the relevant numbers for the takeoff.

 

[NM]

Flying Fox,

Not too far off the mark except the weight is calculated then all the date, including wind, is entered into the computer which produces the relevant numbers for the takeoff.

I think he was implying that if the aircraft was parked pointing into a strong wind, some amount of lift will be created as the wind passes over the wings which may affect the accuracy of any on-board weight measuring device. While this is unlikely to be the case for an aircraft parked pointing into a terminal with a aerobridge attached, it could have some influence if parked at a remote stand.

 

[Flying Fox]

Yes I would have thought that the aircraft could determine its own weight once all doors (pax & cargo) were closed. This would remove a possible source of error (ie. human data entry error) but it would still be checked off by pilots who would still perform a manual calc of the weight.

Further news here about the investigation -

Wrong weight punched into laptop on Emirates flight | Herald Sun

Very surprised to hear that the aircraft also touched the grass area after the runway - yikes!!!!

 

[oz_mark]

ATSB preliminary report is here: 200901310

 

[serfty]

See here for an insipid animation: Multimedia - Herald Sun - Near miss for Emirates Flight Ek407

• 0.7 meter high strobe light 170 metres from the end of the runway was 'crashed through'.
• 3.5 metre high antennae were taken out 350 Metres from the end of the runway.

 

[browski]

These are the comments I find most interesting:



"The investigation is continuing and will examine:

• human performance and organisational risk controls
• computer-based flight performance planning, including the effectiveness of the human interface of computer based planning tools.
• reduced power takeoffs, including the associated risks and how they are managed.

The aircraft operator has informed the ATSB that based on their internal investigation, the following areas are under review:

• human factors
• training
• fleet technical and procedures
• hardware and software technology.
  

The investigation is ongoing and the ATSB continues to work closely with representatives from the UAE GCAA, French BEA, Emirates and Airbus. While the investigation is likely to take some months, should any critical safety issues emerge that require urgent attention, the ATSB will immediately bring such issues to the attention of the relevant authorities who are best placed to take prompt action to address those issues."

OK, "Human Performance and organisational risk control". Emirates probably have the highest qualified pilots around but with no union they are also the hardest working. If the ATSB conclude that these pilots were fatigued, it will be up to CASA to decide if they make Emirates reduce their pilots flying hours from about 90 per month to 70 per month - before they allow EK to fly into Oz.

What I find interesting here is as most people know, Emirates have undue influence over the UAE GCAA similar to the special relationship Qantas have with CASA. Now, on the one hand Qantas would love to see CASA withhold Emirates flights to Oz until EK can demonstrate that their pilots have more rest. On the other hand Qantas also want to work their pilots harder but are restricted by the unions. The Aussie Govt of course wants no sanctions against EK because of the revenue EK bring to Oz. So FWIW.......my guess is that because there was no blood, CASA will recommend remedial measures but will not enforce them.

 

[mannej]

With some minor background in physics, I would have thought the pure mechanics of a plane sitting still would make an on board sensor very prone to error with a high source of error. A weigh bridge would probably be more accurate I would think.
Taking human error out, you would only be accounting for a fairly small source of error as all these things do combine to create the complete error such as the error witnessed with the take off weight for the EK flight

 

[2muchplastic]

Reading the report (not that I pretend to understand all of it), you get the sense of exactly how close this was to a major catastrophe.
But for the captain hitting TOGA when he did, it looks like one EK A340 would have been a big ball of fire at the end of the runway. :shock:

Looking at the photos of the damage, including cracks to the pressure bulkhead, it would seem that it is going to be a bit more than a paint job and a polish to get the bent bits straightened out.