Would you complain if Qantas took your 75K points after the 18 month expiry date?

[BAM1748]

For many loyalty schemes that I am enrolled in, points now never expire.

I think it's only a matter of time before laws are introduced to make that compulsory or at least make it a much longer minimum expiry period - eg 3 years.

It's been done with gift cards. Even Qantas ones despite what it might state on the Qantas gift voucher.

Time to do it with FF schemes, I think.

I'm sure QF points never used to expire. I would think it was becoming an ever increasing liability issue.

 

[drron]

I do agree with Vic that QF send out WAY too many emails that are irrelevant. I know you can opt out of certain categories but yeah you'd think their CRM would get a bit smarter to know if I've never flown to JNB or SCL(or anywhere on those continents) that I'm unlikely to be interested in all those sales or random emails saying how great it is to go there.. it adds to the "noise" for sure.

Definitely a fail on their marketing side.I get several emails a month often with travel specials.
They don't seem to know that for the last 3 years I haven't earnt a single SC with them and my only activity is getting points from WW then transferring them to mrsdrron.

 

[RichardMEL]

Definitely a fail on their marketing side.I get several emails a month often with travel specials.
They don't seem to know that for the last 3 years I haven't earnt a single SC with them and my only activity is getting points from WW then transferring them to mrsdrron.

oh but they are still hoping you'll travel as an "active" member....

 

[RichardMEL]

bucking the trend of points expiry I noted Marriott actually introduced points expiry last year or the year before... so they're not all going to not expire.

Several programs I seem to recall have bounced around with expiry over the decades. Sometimes even the length of time before points expire (I am sure QFF was three years at one point)

 

[p--and--t]

Definitely a fail on their marketing side.I get several emails a month often with travel specials.
They don't seem to know that for the last 3 years I haven't earnt a single SC with them and my only activity is getting points from WW then transferring them to mrsdrron.

I agree that some weeks I think they are annoyingly testing the volume limits of my email supplier despite me trying to adjust my marketing "preferences" down to the minimum.

But on the surface isn't it a "loyalty" program after all, and you appear to be "loyally" regularly accumulating points from WW in lieu of taking WW dollars.

I would expect from a high level view lots of non-AFFers may rarely if ever be interested in SCs so why wouldn't the program try and tempt you with more loyalty? I would expect that a very large number of the 13M members have not accumulated any SCs at all and are saving points for that special birthday trip to the gold coast. I'm guessing a surprising number (to AFFers) of the population may never have been in an aeroplane.

From QF point of view, the "program" is all about getting you to spend more somewhere/anywhere to gather more points that they have sold at a profit to that partner.

 

[Lynda2475]

If they haven't flown a single OW flight or even logged on to check their points, they cant really call themselves a frequent flyer or a loyal customer as they haven't been engaging with the program with any decent frequency at all. There are so many ways to earn 1 point via online shopping etc without flying, if they were really building towards a big reward they would be tracking more closely and making an effort to earn points.

Some personal responsibility is required, 2,500 points can easily be earned on 1 months regular credit card spend or 1 decent flight somewhere.

 

[33kft]

From QF point of view, the "program" is all about getting you to spend more somewhere/anywhere to gather more points that they have sold at a profit to that partner.

Absolutely, and that approach is probably diluted somewhat if partner spend isn't necessary because there's no expiry, as well. In a program with 12m subscribers that a lot of people's jobs depend on, I suspect it isn't quite as easy as many commenters on here believe it is to tweak a variable here and there without either losing a lot of partners or alienating participants who direct their spend to partners, to say nothing of the cost to corporate / shareholders.

Doing so just to address bad feedback from those who are clearly not that valuable to the program at all (no transactions, even with partners, in 18 months??) or to counter bad press of which there is an unlimited amount in the travel industry and which itself is pretty much diluted down to nothingness makes no financial sense.

My personal belief is that if we weren't talking about QFF specifically and were instead talking about loyalty programs in general, the feedback on here would be somewhat different. There's competing interests of socking it to them based on previous experiences with QFF and the benefits of being "loyal" to the brand vs the implementation in general of loyalty programs, to which I suspect there is significantly more warmth in terms of reception.

 

[RichardMEL]

I absolutely accept that those of us in dedicated forums like AFF have far more understanding of the rules of the programs we care about and are unlikely to face points expiry or the like. Absolutely.

This is a niche community and we need to remember this. The vast majority could care less on a day to day basis. Many may even have a general goal of "I'll use them someday" as a goal but that's about it.

And "Mr 75k points" is a perfect example of this.

I understand his frustration but as I wrote beforre.... dude needs to take responsbility and accept QF's offer and do it, or not accept it and move on. Whining to the media doesn't help - even with the very biased reporting.

 

[ChrisMars]

I would complain if Qantas expired my 75k points with no options to get them back. Mistakes can happen to everyone, different life situation etc...
Qantas can't just give back the points like that, it defeats the purpose of the expiry date. However, the small challenge (2.5k) seems appropriate, as it gives a chance to the dude to check how he can build those points to get back his 75k. There are so many ways to achieve that those days that the challenge seems fair, if not generous.

 

[RichardMEL]

Ah yes.. but complain to QF? or to the media?

 

[trippin_the_rift]

Disagree. I've had a couple of not engaged programs where I got emails, MH and SQ. I looked and acted. MH 500 points going to expiry - ok. SQ your account is going to be closed - tried to do something but unsuccessful. Both were at least 6 months in advance.
.....

So you have 500 Miles with MH, you receive and read the email about expiry, and still let them expire.

That is proof that making it super-super clear to members that miles are about to expire - is useless.

If they haven't flown a single OW flight or even logged on to check their points, they cant really call themselves a frequent flyer or a loyal customer as they haven't been engaging with the program with any decent frequency at all.

...

Qantas tracks customers by LTV (lifetime value). A flawed metric conjured up by accountants that don't take into consideration market variables or the 'human element'.

Other airlines of the world track customers by SOW (share of wallet). In your example, under LTV - Qantas would view that customer as having no immediate future value, and therefore, they are discarded. Under SOW model - that customer is giving 100% of their available loyalty to Qantas, and therefore, very loyal, and in the customer's mind - engaged.

I would complain if Qantas expired my 75k points with no options to get them back. Mistakes can happen to everyone, different life situation etc...
Qantas can't just give back the points like that, it defeats the purpose of the expiry date. However, the small challenge (2.5k) seems appropriate, as it gives a chance to the dude to check how he can build those points to get back his 75k. There are so many ways to achieve that those days that the challenge seems fair, if not generous.

If you don't have any cards which can earn QF points......and those 75K have taken 3...4...5...10 years to earn... then 2.5K is a lot.

 

[RichardMEL]

So you have 500 Miles with MH, you receive and read the email about expiry, and still let them expire.

That is proof that making it super-super clear to members that miles are about to expire - is useless.

I disagree.

It's an informed choice.

And as such, Vic would then have no grounds at all to complain. He received the notice.. made a decision that that balance wasn't worth action and let it expire. That does not invalidate the purpose of the notification, nor does it make it useless... it was useful indeed - it aided a choice.

Now, one may consider letting more or less orphan points in a program expire to be a poor coice, but clearly to Vic those points were useless to hi. Everyone's mileage(pun intended) varies.

 

[jpp42]

Regarding the reasons for expiry - as others have noted Qantas wants to reduce the liabilities and increase "breakage" (expired points). These essentially become revenue (sorry if I'm not using the exact accounting terms properly).

Here's an interesting article about "Breakage" from an accounting perspective. I can't quite follow it all but there's an interesting note that Qantas has one of the lower breakage rates (and thus higher engagement) of major airlines.

https://medium.com/@dfcatch/loyalty-myths-is-breakage-good-873950da26dc

Also, Delta apparently has conjured up some accounting trick where they advertise their miles don't expire, but still treat them as if they do on their books. This may be the fact that the number of people who actually remember about their accounts and reactivate them after, say, 3 years, is negligible. For the few passengers that do, they could just write this off as a new marketing expense (they would need some accounting treatment, since the expired points were previously removed as a liability from an accounting perspective).

 

[Lynda2475]

Other airlines of the world track customers by SOW (share of wallet). In your example, under LTV - Qantas would view that customer as having no immediate future value, and therefore, they are discarded. Under SOW model - that customer is giving 100% of their available loyalty to Qantas, and therefore, very loyal, and in the customer's mind - engaged.

Except they aren't giving 100% of their SOW to QFF, as I find it hard to believe that "customer" has zero need to purchase groceries within 18 months or cant find 5 mins to do a survey etc. Qantas (or any airline) have no real way to measure SOW as they have zero visibility wrt whether you are flying with someone else or not at all; and short of a survey no real way to know if you will fly again.

I agree with RichardMEL they need to "take responsibility and accept QF's offer and do it, or not accept it and move on"; no one to blame but themselves for not staying engaged with a program that offers and continuously promotes numerous way to earn and burn points. Prior to expiry they could have burnt a small number of points on a gift card or something trivial and extended the life of their points.

 

[trippin_the_rift]

Except they aren't giving 100% of their SOW to QFF, as I find it hard to believe that "customer" has zero need to purchase groceries within 18 months or cant find 5 mins to do a survey etc. Qantas (or any airline) have no real way to measure SOW as they have zero visibility wrt whether you are flying with someone else or not at all; and short of a survey no real way to know if you will fly again.

It's not complex for airlines to tell when you fly with a competing carrier. Heck, they can even tell which flight you're on and which cabin you booked in.
Some programs measure 'Share of Life' which encompasses banks, hotels, car rental and any other partner in the loyalty program.

The Woolworths QF points conversion is not compelling unless you're a hardcore QF points junkie. Plus the need to signup, carry the card, opt-in... the barriers are real. Plus what if the customer doesn't live near any Woolies or points earning places? What if they don't drink... can't obtain a credit card... you get the idea. This type of customer is the NORM. AFF is the exception.

Outside of core airline loyalty - the partner offers can be lacklustre, and therefore, not a good benchmark for program engagement metrics.
Share of Wallet is defined [individually] by flight accrual and card accrual.

 

[RichardMEL]

re SOW - I'd really like to know how QF (or any airline, or even group such as a hotel chain) might have any idea about their SOW of any particular member? Sure, if I use partners they have that tracked if I give, for example, my QFF# when I purchase tickets on AA. What if I fly AA but give a BA number? Even if I used a QF marketed CC (like the QF Premier card) unless I buy direct through an airline and it's noted as such in a transaction, they still don't REALLY know what I've purchased. And if I use a OTA then they have zero idea what my travel spend is on - it could even be on QF potentially.

Over the past few years I've purchased tickets on QF sure, but also NZ, UA, SQ, AA, AC and a bunch of others I probably forgot - and some of those have been with different cards, some through OTA and some direct... Heck I'm not even sure *I* could give an accurate SOW indication so there's no way in hell they'd know IMO.

I imagine assumptions are made, and I know "they" have a LOT of data points from probably surprising things to put together a profile of who I am as a customer, but there will always be blind spots.. and if I wanted to actively hide by activity more I could use third parties (eg: Paypal or similar, or even just pay by cash or non linked CC) and it would be harder. I don't care but I'm pretty sure that QF (in this case) only has part of the picture on my spend

I'd be very curious to know more about how such things might be derived.

 

[trippin_the_rift]

re SOW - I'd really like to know how QF (or any airline, or even group such as a hotel chain) might have any idea about their SOW of any particular member?
...

Getting into commercial in confidence territory, but I'll leave you with one final thought.

Why is "data the new oil" ?

 

[Lynda2475]

It's not complex for airlines to tell when you fly with a competing carrier. Heck, they can even tell which flight you're on and which cabin you booked in.

I don't believe this to be true except where booked on another OW partner and provided them with my QFF# or the flights are linked to same PNR.

However, if i book for example a domestic US ticket with SouthWest (or another unaffiliated airline) then there is no way QFF would legally know, unless SouthWest is illegally selling my data. Airlines are not allowed to just get passenger and seat information for every passenger booked on a competing airline anywhere in the world just cause they want to build a profile.

Even on a QFF partnered credit card, spend profile is with the issuing bank or credit provider, not Qantas itself. QFF know i earn X points per months indicating a spend of $y but they don't know the breakdown f where that is spent, except where its with them or through their mall link.

If QFF were actually that smart they'd send much better targeted offers; and they pick up bookings in "my Bookings" for OW partners where i didnt quote my FF# during the booking process.

or points earning places

The internet means you are always near a points earning place - ebay can deliver to anywhere that AUsPost delivers to.

This type of customer is the NORM

The avg QFF member may not obsess about maximising points, but i do not think the avg QFF is ineligible for any credit card. Anyone who could afford to fly enough to earn 85k points (since you make the assumption they have only earnt through flying) can definitely qualify for a points earning card even if not a great earning one.

Anyway back to the original question - no i wouldn't go running to the media to complain and show myself to be ignorant of the ability to understand basic terms which are clearly spelt out when you join the loyalty program.

It is possible to earn or burn the 1 point required every 18 months without spending excessively (or at all if you do the Red Planet surveys), they only need to contemplate the 2500 point challenge now (2 * Syd-Mel return discount Y tix will get you 3200 points) because they failed to engage at all over the prior 18 months. Completely self created problem.

 

[Lynda2475]

Why is "data the new oil" ?

Also having worked on customer data mining projects for banks and other corporates I can tell you they cant data match to competitors as easily as you are making out, at least not legally. Most aussie companies have a really poor single view of customer across their own brands, and data matching to industry and anonymised census data is patchy at best. Educated guesses, which are often quite wrong,

 

[Kangol]

Why is "data the new oil" ?

"If you're not paying for the product, you are the product."