Qantas FF announcement 20 June - "biggest overhaul" in program history

[p--and--t]

Well I'm keen to hear evidence to contrary. The ACCC did investigate Qantas FF 15 years ago - and so much has changed since then - maybe its time they had another peek? At that time the ACCC found "insufficient evidence to establish a breach of the Trade Practices Act 1974" - but as I said, that was 15 years ago..... the very fact that ACCC did take the case up highlights that it is not exempt from any kind of warranty or guarantee with regard to its program.

I just really really doubt that when American Express, or whoever, signs up to buy points from Qantas, using real money, that they have collected from their customers, on behalf of their customers, that at no point does it ever get mentioned or discussed the actual utility of said points. That's the reason points don't expire, I would bet. Even if the consumer can't make a claim against the airline (and I am not 100% sure they couldn't), the bank certainly could.

There is a fine line between selling something that can never be used and a mere question of "subject to availability". At what point does it become a scam? The very reason that Qantas is even doing this "points club" thing points to the fact that this very issue has become a problem for them. If they truly are under no obligation whatsoever because of the "T&Cs", well then they should continue as they are! What a business model! The ability to sell an unlimited number of points, forever, with no obligation to ensure that the consumer can actually use them! As I mentioned earlier, when I was working on loyalty programs for a bank, this was discussed at great length by legal teams when drawing up the contracts with the airline and designing the products (credit cards) for the customer. I don't know what was actually ever agreed to, but it was certainly a "thing" that was important enough to be talked about....

Anyone want to start a class action with with me

I'm not a lawyer but think you are barking up the wrong tree.

You will note QF are very careful to never sell points to members unless they are engaged in a specific transaction where they are getting a benefit - AKA buying additional points to satisfy a PNR where there is a shortfall.

QF gives away points when you fly or do other things - there is no SALE of points.

QF sells points to banks etc - you would need to see the contract between them before you can make any judgement or assumption - the contract could specifically state they are selling points into a reward program with no guarantees.

The banks give away points as an incentive with no guarantees with regard to their usefulness. Banks do not sell points.

QF provides thousands of ways to use your points if you care to look at the "use your points page".

Some items such as premium cabin seats are subject to limited availability which are YOUR specific area of angst but the whole program arrangement is nowhere near any form of illegality.

Folks are delusional if they think the QFF program is some form of community self help charity created for the members. It is a specific program created by the airline to provide rewards which some people may find useful and increasingly to create revenue to help the Airline's bottom line.

 

[CaptJCool]

3 years? I thought it was 18 months....

Yes my mistake, it is 18 months

 

[PineappleSkip]

not sure about "targeting - but qualifying already approx 0.001 to 0.004

There was a comment upthread that someone (AJ?) said about 400 currently qualify for LTP. 2018 numbers of QFF members (12.3m) and past YoY growth in the databook indicates around 12.8m current members. This suggests about 0.003% of members currently qualify.

Cheers skip

 

[TonyD]

Alan Joyce said - We haven't had a points "cost " increase in 15 years ! SAY WHAT !! The points are tied to the dollars . cost goes up - points earnt and spent go up !! yes they are tied to the miles but those miles cost according to market forces ! Plus I suspect the fees have way crept up in 15 years . WHO remembers when there was NO side cost to a redemption of points ?

 

[p--and--t]

There was a comment upthread that someone (AJ?) said about 400 currently qualify for LTP. 2018 numbers of QFF members (12.3m) and past YoY growth in the databook indicates around 12.8m current members. This suggests about 0.003% of members currently qualify.

Cheers skip

Thanks. Good I was in the ball park. Certainly not some extreme small number being claimed by some.

 

[TonyD]

Earning 100K for $3K spend is more than 1ct/pt value LOL.

I am trying to follow this debate - are you not confusing earnt rate with redemption rate ?

 

[Jenya]

this "overhaul" might also change their approach to frequency of popular offers like Double SC's.
Hope that's not the case.

 

[sxc]

this "overhaul" might also change their approach to frequency of popular offers like Double SC's.
Hope that's not the case.

According to the ausbt article, Qantas said both targeted and open DSC offers will continue to be offered. Strange that they would admit this as it's tacitly announcing that DSC is something to be relied upon?

I would have expected something more like "DSC offers are provided occasionally to surprise and delight members".

And according to @Brettmcg there won't be open DSCs in future - only targeted ones.

 

[rock86]

I'm not a lawyer but think you are barking up the wrong tree.

You will note QF are very careful to never sell points to members unless they are engaged in a specific transaction where they are getting a benefit - AKA buying additional points to satisfy a PNR where there is a shortfall.

QF gives away points when you fly or do other things - there is no SALE of points.

QF sells points to banks etc - you would need to see the contract between them before you can make any judgement or assumption - the contract could specifically state they are selling points into a reward program with no guarantees.

The banks give away points as an incentive with no guarantees with regard to their usefulness. Banks do not sell points.

QF provides thousands of ways to use your points if you care to look at the "use your points page".

Some items such as premium cabin seats are subject to limited availability which are YOUR specific area of angst but the whole program arrangement is nowhere near any form of illegality.

Folks are delusional if they think the QFF program is some form of community self help charity created for the members. It is a specific program created by the airline to provide rewards which some people may find useful and increasingly to create revenue to help the Airline's bottom line.

Exactly

I just really really doubt that when American Express, or whoever, signs up to buy points from Qantas, using real money, that they have collected from their customers, on behalf of their customers, that at no point does it ever get mentioned or discussed the actual utility of said points. That's the reason points don't expire, I would bet. Even if the consumer can't make a claim against the airline (and I am not 100% sure they couldn't), the bank certainly could.

Why would Qantas provide a guarantee on the utility of the points issued in the contracts, they're not that silly. Additionally, why would the bank care on how just useful the points are to their customers, as long as the points are issued and they can be used within the QFF scheme.

The very reason that Qantas is even doing this "points club" thing points to the fact that this very issue has become a problem for them. If they truly are under no obligation whatsoever because of the "T&Cs", well then they should continue as they are! What a business model! The ability to sell an unlimited number of points, forever, with no obligation to ensure that the consumer can actually use them!

No it doesn't point to that, it points to them generating an increasing liability in their books from not enough QFF points not being redeemed.

Or they can do as you say, but then they just end up with a massive liability on their books.

 

[muppet]

While yesterday was all about points and status, there would be no points business without them first having an airline. So regardless of the difference in margins between fares and selling points, and the huge market for points with non-flyers, underneath it all is an airline that needs to have people happy to fly with them.

I hear ya.

But the numbers don’t lie - most of the time, running an airline is flushing cash down the drain. We’re in unique times with airlines making money for multiple years.

 

[oz_mark]

Not even close yet - the last enhancements had more angst for us: Qantas FF announcement 20 June - "biggest overhaul" in program history

AFF was smaller then, but imagine what would have happened if they were pulling the change from kilometres to miles now I think that was a bigger, badder set of enhancements. Can't remember what else they did, but changing the earning from kilometres to miles always stood out to me

 

[muppet]

this "overhaul" might also change their approach to frequency of popular offers like Double SC's.
Hope that's not the case.

DSCs are not a gift. They are designed to induce purchasing that may otherwise go to another carrier. QF will have DSC offers so long as they want to induce purchasing.

 

[DC3]

There was a comment upthread that someone (AJ?) said about 400 currently qualify for LTP ...

Yes, and 350 are by now in nursing homes?

 

[wandersen]

AFF was smaller then, but imagine what would have happened if they were pulling the change from kilometres to miles now I think that was a bigger, badder set of enhancements. Can't remember what else they did, but changing the earning from kilometres to miles always stood out to me

I remember it well. It was not well received but that was pre the days of credit card sign on bonuses. You get way more out of the program now if you fly and spend.

 

[cove]

So much fanfare for a downgrade of points redemption value......

 

[33kft]

I think they did well in honesty. They are hardly the only airline or institution to have introduced a deval this year, but unlike many others they structured it in a way that was moderate given the amount of time since the last across-the-board deval, they used it as an opportunity to hit a few points of contention (high surcharges, no LTP) but only so moderately that it won't end up costing shareholders, (moderately) addressed redemption availability and cost for non-status holders, balanced actual frequent flyers with those who are flying recreationally and buying 3rd party products to earn QFF points, and delivered it with some PR spin to help the medicine go down. Not a runaway success for any class of customer, but hardly an affront either.

 

[serfty]

AFF was smaller then, but imagine what would have happened if they were pulling the change from kilometres to miles now I think that was a bigger, badder set of enhancements. Can't remember what else they did, but changing the earning from kilometres to miles always stood out to me

It was September 2001 when the change from earn per Km became earn per Mile.

Until then it had been 0.7 point per Km in discount economy (B class or 'less') and 1 point per Km for the Y fare bucket. (I had a mix of 707 and 495 points earning flights MEL/SYD.) J earned 1¼ points per Km and F earned 1½ points per Km.

Points earn became 100% of miles distance in all eligible economy classes. Status bonus was introduced at this time (25%/50%/100%) along with 1000 point minimum earn (1250 for F/J).

 

[Himeno]

DSCs are not a gift. They are designed to induce purchasing that may otherwise go to another carrier. QF will have DSC offers so long as they want to induce purchasing.

I've been sent bonus SC offers, general and targeted, a dozen times over the last 3 years. I've only ever been able to make use of 1 of them. Every other time, I have not been in a position to book or plan any sort of travel during the qualifying period.

 

[bertflyer]

I've been sent bonus SC offers, general and targeted, a dozen times over the last 3 years. I've only ever been able to make use of 1 of them. Every other time, I have not been in a position to book or plan any sort of travel during the qualifying period.

This has been the biggest problem for those of us that work for institutions that impose internal travel approval processes which can take longer than the DSC booking window. I think I’ve also only managed to take advantage of 1 DSC offer over the last few years, despite receiving 2-3 offers per year and travelling 7-8 times a year.

 

[JohnK]

Yes j and f redemptions are excellent value. Well for QFF anyway. Though if you use the discount j prices it is not so valuable as some claim.

But y redemptions are not subsidising them.

No, no, no.

You churn a credit card earning 120,000 QFF points with $0 fee and you can redeem a business return to BKK for ~$600 that is worth close to $5,000.

I purchase $193 airfare SYD-BNE earning 800 QFF points and after 72 flights have enough for an economy return for an additional ~$600 in fuel surcharges to offset a $700 airfare.

It really makes no sense that economy and business can be so far apart in value.

And Im almost certain these changes are going to benefit the majority of QFF members. So apologies up front but I don't have any sympathy for churners or those putting millions of business spend through their credit cards. If these changes are negative then som nam na. For anyone earning QFF points the hard way and had premium redemptions in mind then this is not a good change.

You can tell I'm ecstatic. The 56,000 QFF point award has been reduced to ~50,400 QFF points + reduction in fuel surcharges. A 30%-50% award promotion discount would also be great.

So obviously we are looking at the changes from a different perspective.