Would you complain if Qantas took your 75K points after the 18 month expiry date?

[Vic]

The warning was before signing up.

Only if they signed up when the 18 month expiry was in place. You do not know when they signed up, there very well could have been NO expiry when they signed up.

 

[Kangol]

Only if they signed up when the 18 month expiry was in place. You do not know when they signed up, there very well could have been NO expiry when they signed up.

You have missed the point. See post #106.

 

[Vic]

You have missed the point. See post #106.

I think you'll find the point is that you have no idea if they would've signed up if any such changes where in place at the time they signed up. Being able to make changes does not mean customers have to accept those changes, and it certainly does not inform on whether they would have accepted such amended terms if they were in place when they signed on.

There is a big point that seems to have been missed.

 

[woodborer]

For a lot of these programs they are free. So I think people just need to accept the game, take what they can, and don't stress about changes.

The one exception. Qantas. It is not free to join (waivers aside). I get the need to change terms over time (heck everyone I have contracts with change them from time to time). But given that you have to pay to be a member changes the way I view them.

 

[Kangol]

I think you'll find the point is that you have no idea if they would've signed up if any such changes where in place at the time they signed up. Being able to make changes does not mean customers have to accept those changes, and it certainly does not inform on whether they would have accepted such amended terms if they were in place when they signed on.

There is a big point that seems to have been missed.

But they made an agreement to accept the terms "of the day" and any and all future changes - all inclusive.
If they were not open to accepting the possibility of future changes - which is what has been stipulated before joining, then the responsibility lies on the member NOT to accept them in the first place and NOT to join at all. Or, when they are notified of the changes, to cancel their account when the notification has been sent.

Whether it is "fair" or "acceptable" might have a conversational purpose, but unrelated.


Respectfully, that is the bigger picture point that *seems to have* been missed.


Ultimately - don't like it = don't sign up.

 

[Lynda2475]

Has anyone actually ever paid to Join QFF? QFF membership is free with woolworth rewards, free with any partner credit card, free on any corporate scheme, free by family referral.

Even if they did pay way back when doesn't stop the terms from being able to be changed, and doesn't excuse personal responsibility for not engaging with yoru account by logging in or reading emails.

 

[RichardMEL]

The 2500 points/2 partners challenge seems to be standard no matter the number of points one is trying to recover from my reading of multiple threads and complaint stories over the past few years - so it doesn't seem tied to th enumber of points lost. I don't think it's unreasonable.

Someone reported further up this thread their son lost points and had no email communication settings so received no email - to me that is poor if QF did not send an email regardless of those preferences. One may not want all the spam emails but program change info, points expiry emails etc I think should absolutely be sent no matter what the prefs are.

I also noted with interest the comment about a non-AU member getting expiry emails. It would be interesting to know if this is specific as in they do not send separate emails to AU based members? If so, I would again feel that is wrong. However there's no real proof of this - at the very least there seems mixed *anecdotal* evidence

 

[Lynda2475]

to me that is poor if QF did not send an email regardless of those preferences.

Except that if a user has opted out of receiving certain types of email then Qantas aren't legally allowed to spam them anyway. It is a requirement on Aus companies to honour contact preferences on any account.

 

[Vic]

But they made an agreement to accept the terms "of the day" and any and all future changes - all inclusive.
If they were not open to accepting the possibility of future changes - which is what has been stipulated before joining, then the responsibility lies on the member NOT to accept them in the first place and NOT to join at all. Or, when they are notified of the changes, to cancel their account when the notification has been sent.

Whether it is "fair" or "acceptable" might have a conversational purpose, but unrelated.


Respectfully, that is the bigger picture point that *seems to have* been missed.


Ultimately - don't like it = don't sign up.

Umm gee, great to make a decision about changes that might happen when you don't know any details or if the changes will happen at all.

Blindly quoting terms and conditions misses the point.

 

[RichardMEL]

Except that if a user has opted out of receiving certain types of email then Qantas aren't legally allowed to spam them anyway. It is a requirement on Aus companies to honour contact preferences on any account.

Yes that's a very fair point.

I just logged in and looked at my profile, and under "Interests and Subscriptions" (which is not very helpful in terms of email preferences imo) and I note there's a "Information about my membership" category to sign up to. That seems pretty specific in terms of notification for expired points.

So, I would modify my above statement to say that:

1. This should be a default on unless a user opts out
2. QF need to respect that setting - having said that if a user has opted out of this specific subscription and QF honours that by not sending an email, they should not complain(well they will, but they've made a choice).

Now, on the subscriptions mage it does not actually specifiy directly that this means emails about expiring points or program changes, and maybe they should specify this for full transparency, but I think it could be argued if someone opted out of such a subscription then it's reasonable for QF to not send them a reminder email.

It's a bit of a minefield really because I can see someone just unclicking a bunch of the options because they get too much stuff, then not getting anything saying their points expiring and thinking it unfair. However it is true if I unsubscribe from email in this way that should be honoured.

 

[Kangol]

Umm gee, great to make a decision about changes that might happen when you don't know any details or if the changes will happen at all.

Blindly quoting terms and conditions misses the point.

Blindly ignoring the decision to agree to terms that are subject to change in the first place, misses the point.

All members agree at time of joining that the terms are subject to change.

If they change and the member does not agree, CANCEL THE MEMBERSHIP. The fact that the person in question did not cancel their membership shows that they were willing to continue being a member.

Do you always hide from and/or argue with facts that show you are wrong?

Nothing personal against you, no judgement.

At least you can learn from your mistake.

 

[Kangol]

Yes that's a very fair point.

I just logged in and looked at my profile, and under "Interests and Subscriptions" (which is not very helpful in terms of email preferences imo) and I note there's a "Information about my membership" category to sign up to. That seems pretty specific in terms of notification for expired points.

So, I would modify my above statement to say that:

1. This should be a default on unless a user opts out
2. QF need to respect that setting - having said that if a user has opted out of this specific subscription and QF honours that by not sending an email, they should not complain(well they will, but they've made a choice).

Now, on the subscriptions mage it does not actually specifiy directly that this means emails about expiring points or program changes, and maybe they should specify this for full transparency, but I think it could be argued if someone opted out of such a subscription then it's reasonable for QF to not send them a reminder email.

It's a bit of a minefield really because I can see someone just unclicking a bunch of the options because they get too much stuff, then not getting anything saying their points expiring and thinking it unfair. However it is true if I unsubscribe from email in this way that should be honoured.

See here, underlined:

3.1 Subject to clause 3.2, Qantas Loyalty reserves the right to make any changes (whether material or otherwise) to Qantas Frequent Flyer, the Terms and Conditions, the PDS, the Rewards or Benefits offered and the Fee Schedule, including:

..................

3.3 Without limiting this clause 3 in any way, Members will be taken to have received the notice referred to in clause 3.2 if Qantas Loyalty notifies Members of the change by:


(a) for Members living in Australia or New Zealand, providing notice at the email address provided to Qantas Loyalty by the Member or, if no valid email address is held by Qantas Loyalty, by posting details of the changes on qantas.com;
(b) for Members living outside Australia or New Zealand, posting details of the changes on qantas.com.

 

[drron]

Unfortunately there is a thing called Human Nature.It is rarely rational and certainly usually will not even think some program they are in will ever change.Plus it means that we ALL can make mistakes.They are not deliberate and IMHO in this instance unfair to severely punish no matter what the T&Cs say.
But QFF did give the fellow an easy way out so no more complaints from him should be accepted.
And why are we even continuing this back and forth discussion?

 

[Cruiser Elite]

And why are we even continuing this back and forth meaningless* discussion?

Cause it is the AFF way!!!

* Yep I added a word

 

[RichardMEL]

See here, underlined:

3.1 Subject to clause 3.2, Qantas Loyalty reserves the right to make any changes (whether material or otherwise) to Qantas Frequent Flyer, the Terms and Conditions, the PDS, the Rewards or Benefits offered and the Fee Schedule, including:

..................

3.3 Without limiting this clause 3 in any way, Members will be taken to have received the notice referred to in clause 3.2 if Qantas Loyalty notifies Members of the change by:


(a) for Members living in Australia or New Zealand, providing notice at the email address provided to Qantas Loyalty by the Member or, if no valid email address is held by Qantas Loyalty, by posting details of the changes on qantas.com;
(b) for Members living outside Australia or New Zealand, posting details of the changes on qantas.com.

So QF can post a change on their website (to the T&C) and that's considered notification. If a tree falls in the forest and nobody saw it on the website....

but regarding a personal notification re expiring points - that does suggest that QF *would* email regardless of the email subscriptions.

Personally I have no issue with this (as should be obvious from my earlier comments).. but I do also feel Lynda2475 makes a valid point too. Like I wrote it's a bit of a minefiield.. and whatever you do people will find ways to attack you (if you're a big company that did something they didn't like). I mean you can't win... if they email but people did not want the email.. well they suck.. if they didn't email but people lost their points because they didn't read.. then they suck... and honestly I can see common sense arguements on both sides.. or if you will the "pub test" or "community expectations" of what is reasonable.

At the end of the day though anyone in the situation doesn't really have a legal leg to stand on IMO. For example, QF can claim that notification of points expiry without activity every 18 months is notifieid on their website per clause 3 above and that's the MINIMUM requird by the T&C agreed to by the member (per discussion above ) thus John Doe technically doesn't have a leg to stand on, even if the pub crowd would say it's unfair and QF are uncaring corporate jerks.

(mind you, I'm hardly a lawyer, as should be obvious )

 

[dfcatch]

One difference though. Most other schemes the points expire in a given time regardless of how many points you earn. So almost impossible to bank great amounts of them.

At least with Qantas (and Virgin Aus) your points never expire so long as one point is earned or spent within that 18 month window. So it is possible to bank.

No - "Most other schemes" do not have time-stamped points expiry.

But a number of Asian based ones do.

Activity-based expiry is the norm.

 

[juddles]

My thoughts on this are complicated. In an ideal world, I am totally against the QF habit of burying important emails - ie they send you 100 almost-spam emails with silly non-specials, but in that whole thing they hide important stuff. I firmly believe that terms and conditions are the company's prerogative to invent, and the consumers choice to accept or not. But I also think that an email advising of imminent points expiry should come with a massive warning title - not buried in the shiite they send every two days.

But at the end of the day I am far more philosophical about the whole deal. The reason that Qantas (and Virgin) get away with cough is because there is a paucity of competition. The reason there is that lack of competition is that the airline industry is perhaps one of the hardest games in the corporate world to keep afloat, let alone make a profit. So in recognizing that I look to another baseline with which to judge them - their bottom line...

Yes, Qantas has pulled a few profitable years recently - but that barely makes up for past losses. Despite all the hype about unfair things, all the desires for a better deal for consumers, the company does not exactly reap a huge profit. If they were in a gig that consistently made money for the shareholders, I would perhaps be more against their terms. But they do not. They fight for survival every single year. And their biggest enemy is the same people who hate their terms. Because it is those people that have incessantly made spend choices using the internet to grasp the lowest possible fare. This is the absolute truth in the reality of airlines. Virgin is bleeding something shocking. Even though I perceive the Virgin fans as seeing that their overall product is better in many ways than Qantas. ButVirgin cannot increase their fares - bacause those Virgin fans will swap immediately to Qantas if they can pay less.

If consumers would actually PAY for an airline with easy terms, great service, short phone call times, then this airline would exist. The reality has been for many years that the dollar value of a fare is the number one thing. Many frequent flyers here would argue against that - but that is because they are exactly that - frequent flyers, who actually are prepared to pay a teensy bit more.

For Christs sake, there are still people on AFF that react badly to airlines charging more for peak travel periods.....

 

[Mr H]

Oh isn't that clever. If you type the word ***** it automatically gets replaced with stars - LOL

I think that's a bit harsh.

Yes. Life's a bit harsh and then you die.

 

[Beano]

"Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, or to take arms against a sea of troubles."
I'd go with the former.