Will Sydney's new lockout laws change your travel plans?

[MartinMemo]

That would be wonderful, but contentious.

How would they do it? Undercover inspectors watching the bartenders? What would the penalties be, would they be given the power to hurt the club enough that they learn to enforce it, or would they laugh at the fine as they roll in more money? Etc.

We have these in Brisbane. It's really easy, if the bartender says you can only get 2 drinks at a time you just point to a friend of yours and say the other two are for them. If you're all sitting at a table together you work out how many drinks you all want and therefore how many people need to go up at once to place the order while the rest hold the fort (and the drinks you've stacked already).

Brisbane also had a no doubles rule - easy solution "can I have a vodka soda please and a shot of vodka?" *take a sip, pour in your shot*

 

[anat0l]

That would be wonderful, but contentious.

How would they do it? Undercover inspectors watching the bartenders? What would the penalties be, would they be given the power to hurt the club enough that they learn to enforce it, or would they laugh at the fine as they roll in more money? Etc.

In NZ they have breathalysers that you simply talk in front of. Perhaps bars could buy them, train the bouncers to use them and set an industry-wide standard on where the cutoff is. More than driving a car but not tons more, perhaps.

I agree this is contentious, particularly because I wouldn't be surprised if RSA duty or failure thereof is used as a defendant's defence in court (e.g. "The bar didn't stop serving me drinks at the appropriate time").

In theory it's necessary. The breathalyser idea might be a sound way of doing it.

A rather Orwellian way to possibly do it is to give everyone a tag as they enter the bar, which is tied to their identification. This tag must be swiped after every drink purchase, as well as handed in at the end of the night. Upon scanning the tag, you can see how much this person has purchased (although yes this doesn't quite factor that one person may have bought drinks for more than one person, plus you could "swap" tags). The evidence of drinks accumulated during the night might be able to be handed over as legal evidence in court.

 

[harvyk]

That would be wonderful, but contentious.

How would they do it? Undercover inspectors watching the bartenders? What would the penalties be, would they be given the power to hurt the club enough that they learn to enforce it, or would they laugh at the fine as they roll in more money? Etc.

The punishment could be to close the club for a period of time. That's far worse than simply getting a fine, since you are both not earning money during that time, plus your customers are now out busy trying the competition.
I know of a couple of clubs which have been shutdown for liquor licensing breaches, from memory at least one of them did not survive. (Which was a pity as I had had many a fun night there).
The best part is it hurts non-compliant clubs equally regardless of size.

 

[samh004]

The punishment could be to close the club for a period of time. That's far worse than simply getting a fine, since you are both not earning money during that time, plus your customers are now out busy trying the competition.
I know of a couple of clubs which have been shutdown for liquor licensing breaches, from memory at least one of them did not survive. (Which was a pity as I had had many a fun night there).
The best part is it hurts non-compliant clubs equally regardless of size.

Was hoping that'd be the suggestion, but I doubt anyone has the balls to enact laws that do that. And then you need a test case anyway, you need some club to get caught and face the extreme punishment. Preferably a big player.

 

[anat0l]

The punishment could be to close the club for a period of time. That's far worse than simply getting a fine, since you are both not earning money during that time, plus your customers are now out busy trying the competition.
I know of a couple of clubs which have been shutdown for liquor licensing breaches, from memory at least one of them did not survive. (Which was a pity as I had had many a fun night there).
The best part is it hurts non-compliant clubs equally regardless of size.

Certainly, I believe suspension or cancellation of liquor licences are or were considered as a punishment of venues who fail to participate in the enforcement of the new NSW laws.

 

[williamsf1]

You know some of their ideas? Please share! (Seriously - I wouldn't mind hearing some different ideas)

Idea 1- all clubs / bars have a no ID no entry policy where all ID is recorded. If you "muck up" inside or within the area, you automatically receive a 12month ban from that area and any licensed club ( like a AVO). Police would hold this data base.

Idea 2- Dry out areas where people who are affected by either legal or illegal substances can go for help / recovery without fear of prosecution (saves a ambulance / hospital visit later)

Idea 3- better police presence (eg mobile police stations in known hot spots)

Idea 4- better RSA enforcement

Idea 5- better late night transport

 

[harvyk]

I agree this is contentious, particularly because I wouldn't be surprised if RSA duty or failure thereof is used as a defendant's defence in court (e.g. "The bar didn't stop serving me drinks at the appropriate time").

That could actually be part of changing the culture, removing alcohol as a valid defense in court. You've chosen to start drinking, knowing full well that your judgement and reasoning could be impaired. So the idea that you should then be able to use alcohol as a defense against your bad behavior is kinda strange.

Another way to look at it is if I go out for a night on the turps, I then do something silly (eg climb up onto a roof and kick a soccer ball from said roof) and I hurt myself in the process, the injury I sustained isn't going to go away simply because "I had been drinking". The same principal should apply for legal purposes. You do something whilst drunk, the legal consequences should not be reduced as a result, since at some point in time, you as a reasonable and clear minded person decided to start drinking alcohol.

 

[MartinMemo]

On a side note, I'm now taking suggestions for $1k or less clubbing weekends away

 

[bass_ke]

On a side note, I'm now taking suggestions for $1k or less clubbing weekends away

AKL mr Memo!

 

[MartinMemo]

I'm there in a few months. Will decide then. It is a lot cheaper though. $250 flights, $200 hotel for the weekend. Compare with $150 flights $400+ hotel in Sydney.

 

[JohnK]

I don't quite follow you there, you like to go to clubs (I'm assuming RSL's or Casino's) and play pokies at all hours with a drink in hand, and yet if an 18 year old wants to go to a club to dance the night away that's not acceptable?

I can also quite safely say that 99% of "kids" who go to clubs know how to handle drinking alcohol (again, it's that pesky 1%), and before anyone tells me otherwise, I've seen many an adult (aka in their 30's, 40's, 50's etc...) get just as wasted as any teenager could.

Whichever way you want to see it I am entitled to an opinion.

And there is a huge difference between me and an 18 year old when it comes to drinking

- I dont run around screaming and shouting after a few drinks
- I dont get into arguments
- I don't get in to fights

When I go out to clubs that have young kids around drinking even if I could find 50% of them behaving responsibly I would accept their poor behaviour. But unfortunately the majority of them carry on like out of control children I don't want to go back to that club.

P.S I whole heartedly agree with drron that the drinking should be raised. To me 25 is a good starting point.

 

[MartinMemo]

Whichever way you want to see it I am entitled to an opinion.

And there is a huge difference between me and an 18 year old when it comes to drinking

- I dont run around screaming and shouting after a few drinks
- I dont get into arguments
- I don't get in to fights

When I go out to clubs that have young kids around drinking even if I could find 50% of them behaving responsibly I would accept their poor behaviour. But unfortunately the majority of them carry on like out of control children I don't want to go back to that club.

P.S I whole heartedly agree with drron that the drinking should be raised. To me 25 is a good starting point.

Sounds like you're going to the wrong clubs

 

[Spacetravel]

I live in the suburbs of Sydney and regularly frequent clubs and the cross. (1-4 nights a week). I work in the industry at one of the affected clubs and its also the majority of my social life also. I'm unsure how much these new laws will affect me, but keeping with the thread and how it affects my travel.

I think I will frequently start travelling to other states for holidays where I can go out and party until the sun comes up.

 

[MartinMemo]

I just heard phoenix will remain, but open at 5am. Not that I have ever been to would ever go. I was wondering how the day clubs would work.

 

[fersea]

Because I am sitting there playing pokies until 6:00am closing and drinking until bar closing time of 5:30am. Before that when clubs were 24 hours it was not uncommon for me to be home at 9:00am.

And before these kids that go clubbing stsrt whinging they should learn to behave like adults and more importantly learn to handle drinking alcohol.

So what you are saying is that the clubs (pokie clubs) should close earlier because you can't exercise any self control but yet you are at the same time criticising "kids" who you don't think are exercising self control when drinking alcohol.

Interesting way of looking at it.....

 

[moa999]

In agreement with most here that the laws won't do much.

I think what would do more is greater enforcement of RSA and more police.

I compare the RSA attendants in white shirts who stand in front of the bars and check people before they even get to order a drinks and the large number of police literally everywhere at events at the SCG, versus the lack of any sense of RSA and limited police presence (albeit it has improved).

I also unfortunately think that the legality, availability and pricing of other substances tends to drive more Australians to alcohol versus other global cities

 

[irv]

Well one of the idea's which is floated around is mandatory ID scanners on entry to all pubs and clubs, and the sharing of blacklists.



Actually enforce RSA rules, and put limits on the number of drinks one person may buy at a time.


What ever happened to Licensing Sergeants in NSW, there used to be laws that you could not stand at a table and have a drink without food and that was not that long ago. Granted they were draconian however the upshot was you got fined or lost your licence. Police know the trouble hot spots, enforcing RSA rules would be a start particularly where customers have pre loaded.

 

[anat0l]

Whichever way you want to see it I am entitled to an opinion.

Once again, so are we. And we reserve the right like you, a fortiori, to criticise someone else's opinion (not to criticise someone's right to an opinion, big difference).

And there is a huge difference between me and an 18 year old when it comes to drinking

- I dont run around screaming and shouting after a few drinks
- I dont get into arguments
- I don't get in to fights

There is indeed! Quite a few years difference to be more precise

That said, not all of those things you suggest are typical behaviours of 18-24 year olds.

Like others, it ends up being a small subset (very small!) showing the behaviour we have come to realise is both a prejudice on the age bracket and typified in courts and parliament as rationale for these kinds of laws and actions. A larger subset of that same age group may just be silly or frivolous in the older generations' eyes, but they certainly don't break the law.

I whole heartedly agree with drron that the drinking should be raised. To me 25 is a good starting point.

Can't think of a single country in the world where 25 is the drinking age (apart from countries which are dry, and possibly one of the provinces in India). Let alone when you are suggesting that this is only the "starting point" (should the age be raised to 30?). Don't think that idea is going to fly. 21 is the "maximum" consideration; it'd still get a backlash for sure, but at least beyond alcohol-fuelled violence, for certain the physicians in Australia can give a good case.

Let's a be a bit cynical here - governments collect a handsome excise from the sale of alcohol. Raising the drinking age will put a significant damper in the excise collected, as well as tourism income in that regard. (Yes, you can always get someone older to buy for an 'underage', but it will still dent alcohol sales). Whilst they might compromise on 21 years, I don't think they will for 25 years, no matter how much the conservative fundamentalists scream.

Sounds like you're going to the wrong clubs

A lot more tame than the ones we are more used to, certainly not hubs for the "issues" being discussed at hand.

I think I will frequently start travelling to other states for holidays where I can go out and party until the sun comes up.

Don't be too hasty - some states may or may not allow what you propose. Better off having your own party with friends in your own place if you want that to happen.

 

[ChasingDaylight]

You'd be surprised how many of us think the solution is (and want the solution to be) a significant increase in police presence. If I'm drunk walking home alone I'd feel a lot safer being stopped by a cop than an aggressive stranger (unless I was on the Gold Coast).

Where do the extra Police come from - and who is paying for them? Do we raise taxes?

Idea 1- all clubs / bars have a no ID no entry policy where all ID is recorded. If you "muck up" inside or within the area, you automatically receive a 12month ban from that area and any licensed club ( like a AVO). Police would hold this data base.

Idea 2- Dry out areas where people who are affected by either legal or illegal substances can go for help / recovery without fear of prosecution (saves a ambulance / hospital visit later)

Idea 3- better police presence (eg mobile police stations in known hot spots)

Idea 4- better RSA enforcement

Idea 5- better late night transport

1 - Why the Police? I think Nightkey run their own side of this well.

2. Who pays for this?

3. As above. New recruits or taken from other areas?

4. Agree with this.

5. Again, who pays?

 

[MartinMemo]

Where do the extra Police come from - and who is paying for them? Do we raise taxes?



1 - Why the Police? I think Nightkey run their own side of this well.

2. Who pays for this?

3. As above. New recruits or taken from other areas?

4. Agree with this.

5. Again, who pays?

The money can be raised from the taxes not lost to clubs forcing them to close to early, and the tourism that won't be lost now that Sydney is closed for business.