what rights do you have for a seat

[kiwitripper64]

After the fuss has died down over the obese jetstar passenger, I was wondering what people think they are purchasing when they buy airline tickets.
Do you buy the seat and the airspace around it?
What happens if the seat is defective, ie no sound / tv / broken tray and the flight is full?
Or when the passenger next to you is obviously unwell?
In daily life expectations exceed rights. Are airlines the other way round where we expect nothing, but have rights to more?
Here is a link to what some people think they are entiltled to
BCAA Travel Blog » Air Litigious

 

[straitman]

After the fuss has died down over the obese jetstar passenger, I was wondering what people think they are purchasing when they buy airline tickets.
Do you buy the seat and the airspace around it?
What happens if the seat is defective, ie no sound / tv / broken tray and the flight is full?
Or when the passenger next to you is obviously unwell?
In daily life expectations exceed rights. Are airlines the other way round where we expect nothing, but have rights to more?
Here is a link to what some people think they are entiltled to
BCAA Travel Blog » Air Litigious

kiwitripper64,

A good question that I don't have an answer for.

I'm sure the theorists will have many and varied answers and that the ultimate response will be inconclusive.

I hope I'm wrong and that there is a definitive answer out there.

 

[UP4014]

You're buying transport for your physical person, everything else is a bonus.

 

[Nigelinoz]

Well if I was flying Qantas,for example,I would expect to be carried under the terms of the Qantas conditions of carriage document,nothing more.
Book - Flights - Conditions of Carriage - Full

 

[Skoogle]

You're buying transport for your physical person, everything else is a bonus.

When looking on airline websites, there is little about getting me from A to B however they please, but lots of info on seat pitch, windows, entertainment, privacy screen, lounges (ground & in-air), meal selections, friendly service, etc...

If I buy a J seat and get thrown an packet of peanuts and water, I would be upset.

They cannot use T&C to remove what they have already promised as the experience to be provided. That is bait-and-switch and they should be fined and sued.

 

[Nigelinoz]

They cannot use T&C to remove what they have already promised as the experience to be provided

I think they can actually because the conditions of carriage document covers all operations and is not specific to a class of travel,and if ,say due to a security incident that had to move you from your J seat to a Y seat the T & C's state that they would compensate you but they are still entitled to do what they deem necessary.
They agree to take you from one place to another,and you agree to pay them for the journey.

 

[trooper]

Given that the airlines have a particular, defined product in each class.. including Y... it seems to me they are selling - on a per-seat basis.. this defined product.

As already pointed out, they don't hide the details of seat pitch/width etc... so that IS what you get for your money.... x ONE...

THAT is why I vehemently disagree with the notion that more than one seat "must" be provided (at no extra cost) to ANYONE.. as a right.

 

[simongr]

You're buying transport for your physical person, everything else is a bonus.

I don't know why people keep trotting this out. You buy a standard of service and are entitled to compensation of some form if the airline does not provide that level of service. The argument is really about what portion of the fare relates to travel and what relates to service (including lounge access, better check in, food on board, seat pitch, ticket flexibility and everything else).

 

[Nigelinoz]

The argument is really about what portion of the fare relates to travel

If we take the Qantas T & C's as a guide,it states-
"
5.1 What Your Fare Covers

Your fare covers the flight(s) for You and Your Baggage Allowance:

• from the airport at the place of departure specified on Your ticket
• to the airport at the place of destination specified on Your ticket "

And it also says -
4.7 Seating Selection and Allocation

Although we will try to accommodate Your seating need or choice, We do not guarantee You any particular seat. We may need ti change your seat at any time, even after You have boarded the aircraft, as We may need to do this for operational, safety or security reasons.

If We need to ask You to downgrade for any reason, We will at Your Option:

• provide You with an appropriate refund of the difference in fares (or an appropriate credit of Qantas Frequent Flyer points in the event that You are travelling on a Qantas Frequent Flyer Award), or
• accommodate You on a reasonable alternative available flight on Our services

So in my view if ,for example,you purchased a business class seat on a scheduled service,there would be nothing preventing Qantas from substituting an all economy aircraft and refunding you the difference,although I doubt whether they would be legally bound to do so.
(But I'm not a lawyer)

 

[UP4014]

Aviation around the world uses similar standards, basically once the door is shut your rights are gone. You can get off the aircraft until the door shuts without hassassment.

They can substitute aircraft, but has to be jet for jet, not supposed to go from jet to prop, you have the right to refuse. (but not sure what you'd do if you still wanted to get there, but no right to refuse an alternative jet on the grounds you don't like it, say a Aeroflot Tupalov instead of a QF 747. (of course no decent airline would go that far, we hope)

Class of travel is at the descretion of the airline, who will make their best effort to fulfil their obligation or compensate to a satisfactory level.

 

[oz_mark]

Aviation around the world uses similar standards, basically once the door is shut your rights are gone. You can get off the aircraft until the door shuts without hassassment.

In a sense yes, but they do have a responsibility to provide the product/service as described, otherwise compensation is due.

 

[JohnK]

It is a very hard to question answer and even the terms and conditions are never clear. My expectations and what may happen are 2 different things although so far there have only been a few hiccups and overall I have had a pretty good deal.

I can't wait for the day when recliners cannot take away any of my space in WHY. I understand some of the newer aircraft have the shell seats installed and I am eagerly awaiting that to be the standard for all airlines in WHY cabins....

 

[serfty]

... I can't wait for the day when recliners cannot take away any of my space in WHY. I understand some of the newer aircraft have the shell seats installed and I am eagerly awaiting that to be the standard for all airlines in WHY cabins....

CX have done this and I have seen reports where these seat can be very uncomfortable for those over ~175cm.

 

[serfty]

...
If We need to ask You to downgrade for any reason, We will at Your Option:

• provide You with an appropriate refund of the difference in fares (or an appropriate credit of Qantas Frequent Flyer points in the event that You are travelling on a Qantas Frequent Flyer Award), or ...

Of course, EU regulations would override this for any flight departing Europe.

If so downgraded on a QF flight ex Europe (QF6, QF32 ...) one is entitled to compensation of 75% of the "price of the ticket".

 

[oz_mark]

Of course, EU regulations would override this for any flight departing Europe.

If so downgraded on a QF flight ex Europe (QF6, QF32 ...) one is entitled to compensation of 75% of the "price of the ticket".

Not sure it overrides - just the EU gets to decide what 'appropriate' is, rather than QF

 

[serfty]

Not sure it overrides - just the EU gets to decide what 'appropriate' is, rather than QF

Given "the difference in fares" ≠ "75% of the 'price of the ticket'", it's a bit hard to see.

REGULATION (EC) No 261/2004 OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL

Answers to Questions on the application of Regulation 261/2004

 

[Nigelinoz]

Well given that a large amount of the threads on this site are about securing free upgrades I doubt it's going to be a problem for many on here.
Has anybody been "downgraded" recently?Who will be the first AFF member to post a " I got a free downgrade !" thread?

 

[medhead]

I think they can actually because the conditions of carriage document covers all operations and is not specific to a class of travel,

That's not exactly right. Airlines advertise their benefits, I get email from QF promising me a meal and 1000 points and etc. There is an implied contract set up if I use their services on the basis of that advertising.

 

[Nigelinoz]

That's not exactly right. Airlines advertise their benefits, I get email from QF promising me a meal and 1000 points and etc. There is an implied contract set up if I use their services on the basis of that advertising.

True,but I would imagine that Qantas conditions of carriage document would override any such implied contract,

 

[JohnK]

CX have done this and I have seen reports where these seat can be very uncomfortable for those over ~175cm.

I think the reports were the shell seats could be uncomfortable in the recline position but very acceptable in the upright position....