Western Sydney Airport (WSI) Discussion

[SYD]

45km.

As the crow flies.

~55km by road from Martin Place (plus tolls). More from further east (60+ kms) and obviously more from the North Shore, the Shire and further south.

It is what is is, but the decision to not build a transport corridor when they had the chance was dumb. Unfortunately, that train line passed through SYD and there’s zero incentive to connect them (which is understandable).

 

[kamchatsky]

As the crow flies.

~55km by road from Martin Place (plus tolls). More from further east (60+ kms) and obviously more from the North Shore, the Shire and further south.

It is what is is, but the decision to not build a transport corridor when they had the chance was dumb. Unfortunately, that train line passed through SYD and there’s zero incentive to connect them (which is understandable).

The most pragmatic way is to extend the WSI Airport Metro from Bradfield to Glenfield, allowing people to transfer to SYD Airport line.

 

[RooFlyer]

To get a clearer picture of terminology, lets move the geography. If someone says 'I live in Melbourne', where do you picture they might live? The CBD? 10km radius around the CBD? I suggest you'd simply think of an area like this.



Or 'We live in London', and I have conveniently circle 'London Gatwick Airport' Gosh.



The co-opting of 'Sydney' to simply refer to some arbitrary (small) distance from the CBD flies in the face of everyday convention and communication.

Sydney's new airport is located in western Sydney (lower case w now and with future growth at Bradfield, capital W) and is appropriately named Western Sydney International; Kingsford Smith airport is in eastern Sydney.

Again, I can only express amazement at the passion against WSI. Its existence and success can only benefit Kingsford Smith, which is chokkers and cannot be expanded either geographically (including into or on Botany Bay ) or via the clock.

And anyone who can find space for a new airport other than where it is is welcome to say so. I guess you could squeeze a runway in if you filled in the Prospect Reservoir, but that would still be west of the A3 curtain . 'Badgerys's Creek' was announced as the site for Sydney's second airport (note that phraseology) in 1986, nearly 40 years ago. So even way back then, before Sydney expanded hugely to the west, it was considered the best site; the only site, really. It was out on hold when they put in the second parallel runway at SYD, but re-started when they realised SYD was reaching full capacity.

Just be thankful the second airport is happening. It will benefit all of Sydney and many outside of it, who can't avoid (price, destination or schedule) having to fly international in or out of there.

 

[moa999]

The most pragmatic way is to extend the WSI Airport Metro from Bradfield to Glenfield, allowing people to transfer to SYD Airport line.

Not pragmatic all. Very few people specifically plan travel to need to transfer between airports.

Even in Tokyo where for a time there was a clear International / Domestic divide between Narita and Haneda they never built a direct connection.

 

[SYD]

Not pragmatic all. Very few people specifically plan travel to need to transfer between airports.

Even in Tokyo where for a time there was a clear International / Domestic divide between Narita and Haneda they never built a direct connection.

I don’t think that was the point of the comment, more that there’s a train line that could be extended to WSI. The choice was made NOT to extend that line West.

There are other corridors. The Metro West is the current thinking, but IMHO that’ll be pretty slow.

To get a clearer picture of terminology, lets move the geography. If someone says 'I live in Melbourne', where do you picture they might live? The CBD? 10km radius around the CBD? I suggest you'd simply think of an area like this.

View attachment 409611

Or 'We live in London', and I have conveniently circle 'London Gatwick Airport' Gosh.

View attachment 409614

The co-opting of 'Sydney' to simply refer to some arbitrary (small) distance from the CBD flies in the face of everyday convention and communication.

Sydney's new airport is located in western Sydney (lower case w now and with future growth at Bradfield, capital W) and is appropriately named Western Sydney International; Kingsford Smith airport is in eastern Sydney.

Again, I can only express amazement at the passion against WSI. Its existence and success can only benefit Kingsford Smith, which is chokkers and cannot be expanded either geographically (including into or on Botany Bay ) or via the clock.

And anyone who can find space for a new airport other than where it is is welcome to say so. I guess you could squeeze a runway in if you filled in the Prospect Reservoir, but that would still be west of the A3 curtain . 'Badgerys's Creek' was announced as the site for Sydney's second airport (note that phraseology) in 1986, nearly 40 years ago. So even way back then, before Sydney expanded hugely to the west, it was considered the best site; the only site, really. It was out on hold when they put in the second parallel runway at SYD, but re-started when they realised SYD was reaching full capacity.

Just be thankful the second airport is happening. It will benefit all of Sydney and many outside of it, who can't avoid (price, destination or schedule) having to fly international in or out of there.

Most of us are happy with the boundaries of “Greater Sydney”. My old “Sydney” UBD Road directory covered everything from the East, west to the foothills of the Blue Mtns/South West, north to beyond Hornsby and south towards the Gong. The old Melways had equivalent coverage of greater Melbourne…

But that’s nothing to do with the relative distance from parts of greater Sydney - it’s just a fact.

If WSI opens with cheap long term parking (a phrase not usually associated with an airport), then it probably is less of an issue in the beginning.

 

[JMB1]

I don’t think that was the point of the comment, more that there’s a train line that could be extended to WSI. The choice was made NOT to extend that line West.

There are other corridors. The Metro West is the current thinking, but IMHO that’ll be pretty slow.

Most of us are happy with the boundaries of “Greater Sydney”. My old “Sydney” UBD Road directory covered everything from the East, west to the foothills of the Blue Mtns/South West, north to beyond Hornsby and south towards the Gong. The old Melways had equivalent coverage of greater Melbourne…

But that’s nothing to do with the relative distance from parts of greater Sydney - it’s just a fact.

If WSI opens with cheap long term parking (a phrase not usually associated with an airport), then it probably is less of an issue in the beginning.

If it's any consolation the rail corridor via Leppington has been reserved for the future. I believe the state govt is in the process of deciding whether it should be metro or heavy rail

 

[Quickstatus]

I believe the state govt is in the process of deciding whether it should be metro or heavy rail

Heavy rail will be a step backwards.
It's labelled as "future Metro"

 

[justinbrett]

The problem is Australian governments get very loose when it comes to city boundaries.

I remember getting in trouble at LAX as I put LA as my destination city when it was in fact Anaheim. And of course many examples of being in the same metro area but different states.

By Australian standards the entire north east of the US would be a single city.

 

[JMB1]

Heavy rail will be a step backwards.
It's labelled as "future Metro"

Imo I think an extension of the T8 would be better

Heavy rail has its place for longer journeys, it'd be good to have a direct, express heavy rail service from the Eastern CBD to the Western one considering the distance

 

[SYD]

Heavy rail will be a step backwards.
It's labelled as "future Metro"

Our “Metro” is pretty heavy to start with - which is not a bad thing. What doesn’t work is a true metro that has stops every couple of kms.

Apart from the “metro-fication” of the Bankstown line, most of the new metro lines built, being built and planned are somewhere in between.

This new map has hints on how to join the dots.

Planning for future extensions | Sydney Metro

The Sydney Metro – Western Sydney Airport project is currently under construction and will provide a Metro connection from St Marys to Bradfield via Western Sydney International Airport, when the airport opens for passenger services.

www.sydneymetro.info

 

[kamchatsky]

Not pragmatic all. Very few people specifically plan travel to need to transfer between airports.

Even in Tokyo where for a time there was a clear International / Domestic divide between Narita and Haneda they never built a direct connection.

Transfer between airports is just ONE of the benefits to extend WSI Metro to Glenfield. It also allows another method to go to city, or the other part of Sydney suburbs that are not served by T1 line that go past St Marys.

In many ways, the most pragmatic way is to just have express bus network from WSI to all over Sydney suburbs that are not served by WSI Metro->T1 line to CBD: say Liverpool, Bankstown, Campbelltown, Rouse Hill, Epping, Hornsby, Macquarie Park/Uni, Chatswood. Of course, then people will start complaining on how buses are a terrible way to get to the airport ........

 

[kamchatsky]

If it's any consolation the rail corridor via Leppington has been reserved for the future. I believe the state govt is in the process of deciding whether it should be metro or heavy rail

If Leppington Line is to be extended, it will most likely to terminate at Bradfield and people can then transfer to WSI Metro. My understanding is that in the WSI design/implementation there was no room allowed for heavy rail to go to WSI.

 

[Lynda2475]

So I am correct 3rd largest CBD is just a pipe dream no where near an eventuality.

A metro station which doesn't have direct connectivity to the city.

People here complain about 5min bus ride from SYDd to SYDi they certainly won't be happy with 3-4 changes to get to WSI.

95 mins is best case scenario via 2 trains and a metro if connections line up, which is doubtful.

In other countries where the second airport is over 30kms from city there is a single line I.e. LGW to London.

They have not properly planned, more of Sydney population is significantly closer to SYD than WSI.

FYI a train from SYD to Leppington is just over an hour, from central 1hr 20mins. Add in a metro journey and we'll over 90 mins, hardly convenient.

And whilst metro being driverless can operate 24×7 (although currentlydoes not), heavy rail has drivers and no services for 6hrs a day meaning taxi or uber only realistic PT option.

 

[elanshin]

So I am correct 3rd largest CBD is just a pipe dream no where near an eventuality.

A metro station which doesn't have direct connectivity to the city.

People here complain about 5min bus ride from SYDd to SYDi they certainly won't be happy with 3-4 changes to get to WSI.

95 mins is best case scenario via 2 trains and a metro if connections line up, which is doubtful.

In other countries where the second airport is over 30kms from city there is a single line I.e. LGW to London.

They have not properly planned, more of Sydney population is significantly closer to SYD than WSI.

Again forget passengers for a moment.

SYD, Mascot and Botany Bay is absolutely stuffed from a cargo and freight perspective. There is no possibility of expansion there physically is no room there anymore.

WSI is indeed the perfect location for that and it adds in a secondary passenger airport.

During peak periods (now to Christmas) our freight logistics gets absolutely slammed. And there is just no way to increase flight frequencies. You start watching 1-3 day EMS parcels take weeks to arrive.

I'm still not sure what the problem is.

Edit: the freight problems are just going to get worse with each year as more and more people use ecommerce and expect faster and faster turn around.

 

[moa999]

Transfer between airports is just ONE of the benefits to extend WSI Metro to Glenfield.

Yes. But it's only one of a number of options, and historically not the most preferred

If Leppington Line is to be extended, it will most likely to terminate at Bradfield and people can then transfer to WSI Metro. My understanding is that in the WSI design/implementation there was no room allowed for heavy rail to go to WSI.

The WSI master plan design allowed for two rail lines (four physical lines over two platforms)
The first platform the WSI metro under construction, and a second with the location reserved.

Under the previous LNP government, the second platform location was to be served by an extension of the under construction Metro West (itself now due in 2032) from Westmead to the Airport.

The under construction WSI Metro was also to be extended to meet the M1 at Schofields/Tallawong, and extend to Campbeltown/ Macarthur.


The current Labor government cancelled the study of the Metro West extension.

Instead the recent budget had funding to develop two business cases that consider:
- a future rail connection between St Marys and Tallawong, via Schofields and Marsden Park and
- future rail connections between Bradfield and Leppington/Glenfield, and between Bradfield and Campbelltown/Macarthur

Not clear if the latter would use the reserved second platform or be a branch of the WSI Metro, or even an extension of the Leppington line.

 

[Lynda2475]

If dedicate freight planes want to go to WSI let them, will then just cost more in ground transportation to get goods back to where people live.

But as I understand it the bulk of international freight comes on passenger jets so will still be coming via SYD as few passengers will chose WSI due to the distance time and cost of getting there.

 

[kamchatsky]

So I am correct 3rd largest CBD is just a pipe dream no where near an eventuality.

A metro station which doesn't have direct connectivity to the city.

People here complain about 5min bus ride from SYDd to SYDi they certainly won't be happy with 3-4 changes to get to WSI.

95 mins is best case scenario via 2 trains and a metro if connections line up, which is doubtful.

In other countries where the second airport is over 30kms from city there is a single line I.e. LGW to London.

They have not properly planned, more of Sydney population is significantly closer to SYD than WSI.

FYI a train from SYD to Leppington is just over an hour, from central 1hr 20mins. Add in a metro journey and we'll over 90 mins, hardly convenient.

And whilst metro being driverless can operate 24×7 (although currentlydoes not), heavy rail has drivers and no services for 6hrs a day meaning taxi or uber only realistic PT option.

WSI would not be catering for premium passengers like yourself at this stage, most of the premium flyers will still use SYD.

For me, living in northern Sydney, using Google Maps, it would take me 51 mins to go to WSI, or 43 mins to go to SYD, both using toll roads. So it is not a huge difference in terms of time. You will find that this is the case for many parts of Sydney, where the time difference between WSI and SYD is not that great, especially WSI would be against the traffic.

So I would be happy to fly via WSI and SYD.

 

[JMB1]

So I am correct 3rd largest CBD is just a pipe dream no where near an eventuality.

A metro station which doesn't have direct connectivity to the city.

People here complain about 5min bus ride from SYDd to SYDi they certainly won't be happy with 3-4 changes to get to WSI.

95 mins is best case scenario via 2 trains and a metro if connections line up, which is doubtful.

In other countries where the second airport is over 30kms from city there is a single line I.e. LGW to London.

They have not properly planned, more of Sydney population is significantly closer to SYD than WSI.

FYI a train from SYD to Leppington is just over an hour, from central 1hr 20mins. Add in a metro journey and we'll over 90 mins, hardly convenient.

And whilst metro being driverless can operate 24×7 (although currentlydoes not), heavy rail has drivers and no services for 6hrs a day meaning taxi or uber only realistic PT option.

Seems we've shifted the goalposts from "nothing outside a 30km radius is Sydney" to "3rd CBD is theoretical" to "3rd CBD is happening but it hasn't been fully built yet so it doesn't matter"

And from "WSI/Bradfield won't have PT" to "WSI/Bradfield will have PT but it's not 24/7 so it's useless"

It's almost like you want WSI to fail...

 

[Lynda2475]

Well from my home to SYDd is 1 traffic light to SYDi 2 traffic lights. Far far more to WSI, there is no single tunnel to WSI unlike SYD.

The new dorect bridge from m8 exit is brilliant.

Also I don't believe either of those timings in peak hours.

 

[moa999]

No-one is taking SYD away from anyone...
And it's going to be many decades and multiple expansions before WSI gets anywhere near the passenger numbers or destinations that SYD has.

But for a certain portion of passengers WSI will be more convenient and preferred for some of their travel.