Virgin Blue, seats and water issues.

[jimbojones]

I flew PER - SYD a few days ago and it was the most uncomfortable I can ever remember being on a flight. The seats wouldn't go back at all and were very upright so there was no chance of sleep.

Then when I went to get a glass of tap water I was told some ridiculous story about them being liable if the water is not potable. Very obviously a grab for money at the expense of passenger comfort, safety and health, isn't that illegal ie serving alcholol has to be accompanied by free tap water. When did DJ change I remember it being a great airline all for giving a great budget experience??

 

[thewinchester]

Welcome to AFF jimbojones, love The Simpsons inspired username.

On the water issue, I would concur that this may be a breach of the Responsible Service of Alcohol practices of the relevant jurisdiction.

In aviation legal terms, this could be a little tricky. Worldwide conventions stipulate that the laws of the country in which the aircraft is registered apply regardless of its location in the world.

However as far as I am aware, alcohol regulation and licensing in respect of aviation is a matter for the states - except in the specific case of Sydney Airport. I'll cover that later.

Logic would then suggest that the RSA laws of the state in which the registration is held apply, which in this case would suggest Queensland.

From what I can find after a bit of research, Section 27A of the Liqour Regulation (QLD) 2002 was added in December of last year, and requires that water be provided free of charge to any patron who requests it.

However upon searching that state's liqour licensing database, no licenses are held under the airlines name in respect of their airline operations. A wider search on the airport postcode (4007) shows a license for QF's Catering arm, which explicity covers the sale of aircraft on-board a paid mode of transport:

Specific condition(s)
LL89119/2 Liquor may only be sold for purpose of sale and/or supply to:-
a) Companies involved in the provision of commercial transport services (such as airlines and rail lines) for the purpose of provision of liquor to its passengers holding a ticket for transportation;
b) Guests in the company of the passenger;
c) Passengers on aircraft, train or other form of commercial transport; and
d) Qantas Airways Limited or its subsidiaries for supply to staff and guests for functions conducted on Brisbane Airport.

I can only summise that the liquor license for QLD is held by that airline catering company (whose name I do not know), because there is no other license I can find which would cover DJ for this.

So, getting back to it - I would contend that DJ are subject to Liqour Regulation (QLD) 2002 and that they are legally required to provide water aboard their flights. The complaint is best raised by calling Queensland's Office of Liqour and Gaming Regulation on 13 13 04 or by email to [email protected].

So why is liqour licensing at Sydney Airport different?

Glad you asked boys and girls, and you can add this to your files of useless knowledge.

Firstly, this only applies to on-airport facilities - meaning places where liqour is consumed in a building, terminal or other location within the grounds of not only Sydney Airport, but also Bankstown and Camden. This licensing is controlled by the Department for Transport and Infrastructure and not by the relevant state agency, pursuant to the Airports (Control of On-Airport Activities) Regulations 1997, enacted in accordance with section 170 of the Airports Act 1996.

Now while S170 of the above act allows the Commonwealth to have control of liqour licensing at any of the a core regulated airport; or airport specified in the regulations; Sydney, Bankstown and Camden Airports are the only ones where this authority to contol liqour has been applied. If anyone knows why, I'd be interested in the answer.

 

[jimbojones]

Wow what a great response, thanks!

It does seem like a fairly complicated area of law which is hopefully on the side of the consumer, I have just written to the email address you supplied below to ask their opinion. However shouldn't this just be common sense and decency that when on a aircraft at altitude in the air conditioning people will get dehydrated and require water and that water should be free if it's from the tap. Virgin Blue used to be such a great inexpensive airline.

I'd love to hear what one of the Virgin reps here has to say about it?

 

[Beulah]

This article is very useful for everyone of us. Sometimes the problem is not that big, the only thing we need is to think and use our common sense. And after that, we are going to fix a problem on our own.

 

[ishkaban]

you will find that on no VB aircraft is there " drinking fountains" such as jetstar may have.

The crew are told offer water for purchase only.

The water in the taps from the lavatories, is POTABLE and drinkable, and you are free to access that water.

Also if you were seated in rows 13 or 14 on a 737-800 / or rows 11 on a 737-700, these rows do not recline as they are in front of an exit row.

 

[ozbeachbabe]

I was sitting in 24D - an aisle seat recently on a DJ flight BNE/DRW & couldn't even fit a small beauty case under the seat in front of me as the aluminium struts under the seat in front cut in about two thirds of the way across the width of the seat.

The middle & window seat have plenty of room to stow a cabin bag underneath & for that reason I would always go with a window seat when travelling on DJ.

As the flight was booked the day of travel & pretty chockers, aisle or middle seats were the only options to choose from when doing OLCI.

 

[anat0l]

you will find that on no VB aircraft is there " drinking fountains" such as jetstar may have.

Jetstar are the only Australian carrier I know that has such a public "drinking fountain". The actual quality of the water (or drinkability) is something else - I think these should be tested....

The water in the taps from the lavatories, is POTABLE and drinkable

Are you sure? Not saying you're lying, it's just that that is not very common. Unless the placards in the lavs which advise that the water is not to be drunk is more a "cover-our-butts" measure than a real warning against the quality of the water (i.e. which may be unsuitable for consumption).

 

[LiamR]

Ask for crew water, or better just grab it yourself! On Virgin 737 flights its in the rear galley, centre compartment at the top. Same as the ones for sale, just bigger.

I've been offered it many times on boarding with a welcome, but then again, thats due to status.

 

[Moecat]

Good post, just a side bar here.

When i read your thread title it included "water isues" and that brought back some memories for me allthough your post had nothing to do with what i was thinking about ill share it any way.

Not sure if anyone remembers a few years back the 747 service from SYD - PER, i think perhaps they used the oldest planes in the fleet for this route. anyway i traveled this quite a few times and on the first trip the following happened.... i cant remember what cabin i was in possibly J or Y and way after take off about 10 min into the flight i noticed a wet patch on my lap... being unable to recall messing my self i looked up and there was a torrent of water flowing from the celing (well perhaps not a torrent) the water was running for a fair distance and dripping in several locations. i call for a hostie she came and looked annoyed, left and came back with a tall guy who brought tissues with him LOL

This happend on every flight after that... allthough i never go an explanation as to why this happened


Sorry for getting off topic but i had to share...

 

[mannej]

It is o/t but yes I have read about the 743's and water condensation. I can't remember where I read it but I remember on person ending up with a Lap full of wine


Sent from my iPhone using AFF Mobile

 

[jimbojones]

you will find that on no VB aircraft is there " drinking fountains" such as jetstar may have.

The crew are told offer water for purchase only.

The water in the taps from the lavatories, is POTABLE and drinkable, and you are free to access that water.

Also if you were seated in rows 13 or 14 on a 737-800 / or rows 11 on a 737-700, these rows do not recline as they are in front of an exit row.

Hi Ishkaban,

Crew said that they do not consider the tap water on the aircraft potable and thats why I would be forced to buy it, even if that water was potable I do not consider this acceptable. an airline should provide tap water for free to force people to purchase water under all circumstances is unacceptable.

As for the seat going back I was in an exit row, however on looking around I could see no other seats going back, I was also at the rear of the exit row so my seat would have reclined into a non exit row so should have been able to recline. Does anyone know if the other seats on this aircraft would have reclined it was flight DJ572.

 

[anat0l]

As for the seat going back I was in an exit row, however on looking around I could see no other seats going back, I was also at the rear of the exit row so my seat would have reclined into a non exit row so should have been able to recline. Does anyone know if the other seats on this aircraft would have reclined it was flight DJ572.

I thought seats which are in an exit row do not recline either? Someone want to comment on this?

 

[Mal]

Crew said that they do not consider the tap water on the aircraft potable and thats why I would be forced to buy it, even if that water was potable I do not consider this acceptable. an airline should provide tap water for free to force people to purchase water under all circumstances is unacceptable.

So when you order a coffee on DJ, is the water taken from the toilet? Obviously not. So there is potable water in the galley - just like every other airline...

I really would recommend BYO water IMHO. Plane water has never been particularly good.

 

[jimbojones]

So when you order a coffee on DJ, is the water taken from the toilet? Obviously not. So there is potable water in the galley - just like every other airline...

I really would recommend BYO water IMHO. Plane water has never been particularly good.

Hi Mal, Why shouldn't they just provide tap water, has Virgin really become that sneaky they wont give out free water. It reminds me of the dodgy warehouse raves where they turn off the cold water or the water in general in the bathrooms so you have to buy bottled water.

 

[Mal]

Hi Mal, Why shouldn't they just provide tap water, has Virgin really become that sneaky they wont give out free water.

If you want tap water, you should get it. But, the water quality of tap water on planes is always suspect. The way it is stored can allow bacteria to grow in it, and tbh the taste is normally "off".

 

[jimbojones]

If you want tap water, you should get it. But, the water quality of tap water on planes is always suspect. The way it is stored can allow bacteria to grow in it, and tbh the taste is normally "off".

that is your personal opinion Mal, I have never had a problem with the taste and never gotten sick from drinking tap water on a plane, I have no doubt modern engineering can and has overcome the problem of bacteria growth, ie UV light sterilisation. There is no reason other than increasing profits that tap water should not be served on planes imho

 

[serfty]

... i looked up and there was a torrent of water flowing from the celing (well perhaps not a torrent) the water was running for a fair distance and dripping in several locations. ...

It is o/t but yes I have read about the 743's and water condensation. ...

It was an issue on the 744's as well. The condensation came from a drip try on a refrigeration in the galley at the back of the upper deck bubble.

 

[oz_mark]

Jetstar are the only Australian carrier I know that has such a public "drinking fountain". The actual quality of the water (or drinkability) is something else - I think these should be tested....

Some Qantas aircraft have them as well.

 

[jimbojones]

Some Qantas aircraft have them as well.

I've never been on a flight where free drinking water wasn't provided in some form, except for Virgin Blue.

Also I heard back from the QLD alcohol place and have pasted their response below. I am sure though there are other angles under which this practice would be banned ie OHS regulation, is anyone a guru on OHS regulation?

The Liquor Act 1992 refers to the State of Qeensland only. Under Section
12(4) of the Liquor Act 1992 states that aircraft are exempt. Therefore,
regulations for free drinking water do not apply in this instance.

If you require further information please contact our Customer Service
Centre on 3224 7108.

Regards,
Cate Shiels
Liquor Compliance Officer
Office of Liquor and Gaming Regulation

 

[BadgerBoi]

I thought seats which are in an exit row do not recline either? Someone want to comment on this?

I understand that they do recline,however last time I sat in one it was locked for take-off by the FA. They unlocked the other side of the plane but not mine, so I reached down and unlocked it myself. Then again, my memory for details isn't always the best so I am happy to stand corrected by somebody who is certain of what happens...