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Use of OOL by NSW residents to access NNSW

drron

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Not sure what is being reported in QLD, but WA copping no flak? McGowan has been involved in a very public spit with some AFL media personalities over keeping the borders shut.
Yes they have just not as well publicised.Mark got a little aggravated with the criticism.
 

p--and--t

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Yes they have just not as well publicised.Mark got a little aggravated with the criticism.
The aggravation was likely a 2 way street. Just guessing Paul Kelly might might have been just a tiny bit peeved by a state premier saying never heard of him, who is this guy.
 

justinbrett

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Do you expect the aircraft to turn around on the runway, if the wind requires it, or re-enter it in order to backtrack when traffic permits, pop back to NSW, disgorge pax on to a set of temporary stairs while holding all other aircraft up as the NSW pax get their luggage, then spend some more AVTUR getting to the terminal, all the while occupying the runway? And that Airservices Australia, for whom I worked for decades as an ATC, would tolerate that? Crash gates exist - this will surprise you - for a crash; that's why they're there, not for letting disgruntled citizens of NSW out of B737s being disgorged in the middle of a pandemic.

Perhaps Anna is wrong; perhaps her CHO is wrong, but they do not deserve ridicule.

Personally, I am looking forward to a relaxing week or two on one of the coasts this year, as they're usually filled by Cockroaches and Mexicans
So as it seems we are both trained ATC (Hey!) we can skip a few steps as I know you know the airport is federal land and itself is not subject to state border closures and I assume your post is in jest. And you can assume that I know exactly why crash gates are used having worked some real world crashes in the tower.

My point of this entire thread is Queensland shouldn’t have the right to stop NSW driving the - literally because I measured - 900m between the border and the airport entrance. Yes, I have strong views on the border closure generally, but that was my originally intended point. Seems this topic is rather controversial.
 

justinbrett

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Really? Mildura/Renmark? NT to Adelaide for higher level medical care, Mt Gambier? Broken Hill?

All places there trans border travel is common, required and better than heading to Sydney.
Except not with a population base of half a million
 

justinbrett

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Lets be honest here, there is no definitive answer to this situation. If you asked 1000 scientists which side the science is on, you would get very little other than personal preferences. There is some science that says it will have little/no effect, and some science that says it could have major impacts in flattening the curve.


You understand that where you are from, and where your family live have nothing to do with the spread of virus right?

I very much understand that this is a difficult time for you, and not being able to be with your family is difficult. Obviously my opinion is biased to the fact that all my family live within QLD borders and nearly all are within 150km radius of my house. But at the same time, your view is also obviously biased by the fact that all your relatives are on the other side of the border.

I feel like you are trying to make three separate arguments here. The first one is about NSW residents accessing OOL, as far as that one goes I don't think it is as big of an issue as you claim it to be. For those few people who are hoping to holiday in northern NSW, Fly to Ballina/Byron and drive a bit further. Yes it is less convenient, but there are a lot of people being much more inconvenienced by COVID.

The second argument is about the border closures in general. While there is some debate to be had, and there are businesses who are majorly inconvenience by the closures, QLD government are obviously taking the viewpoint of putting lives first, then worrying about the economy. Personally, if I was a politician, I would take a similar viewpoint. Its much easier to justify your actions later, if you are responsible for a stagnating economy, rather than if you are responsible for hundreds of deaths.

The third argument is about your personal holiday to Kingscliff. You seem to have found a reasonable workaround for the closures, I don't think that your family going back to their homes after the visit to you would "make the whole policy ridiculous." After all, the policy is designed to stop the mass movement of people across the border, not the small scale movement of a few people. It is not designed to be the Berlin wall, but to police movement so that we don't see a major spike in movement of people from hotspots.
As for second and third argument, yes, fair call, not the intent of this thread, but it has drifted far from original intent as it is apparently an emotive issue for many.

As for the original argument, the problem is the the RPT network to BNK Is much smaller / more expensive and it is unlikely the airlines will expand in this environment I would really love to see the science - or even a basic argument - about how letting cars drive 900m within the state to get to the airport is going to kill Queenslanders with coronavirus. It’s a nonsense. That’s all this thread was ever about - giving NSW access to the airport.
 

PineappleSkip

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I grabbed a packet of popcorn before I read this thread - knew it would be a goody. :cool:

According to BNK airport, it currently has four flights a week to Sydney, and two more via Newcastle. Gold Coast Airport has understandably called for clarity about the opening date For the Queensland border. It currently claims to have three flights a week, which IIRC are all to Sydney. Which left me wondering about the relevance of the arguments about transit passengers and what the big deal over OOL was.

There is a myth that all airports are “Federal airports”. I think it would be fair to say there are 11 that you could kind of say this about - those being the 11 where the Federal Police provide policing services, 10 of which are owned by the Commonwealth. Other airports are mostly owned by Local Councils or privately.

The other myth is that the states’ jurisdiction is ousted altogether from Commonwealth Airports and other Commonwealth property. Not how our Federal Model works, as worked up by a brace of Constitutions, Parliaments and COAG meetings, and more recently the National Cabinet. Of course s52 of the Commonwealth constitution gives the Commonwealth exclusive jurisdiction over places acquired by the Commonwealth for public purposes, but most Commonwealth Powers are in the long list in s51, which are concurrent with the states. Thus the Commonwealth can make laws about aspects of Aviation within their powers, and so can the states without the s51 limitation. While Commonwealth laws prevail if there is inconsistency, everone seeks to avoid that anyway. The boundaries are not fixed, for example para 51(xxxvii) gives the States the ability to cede powers to the Commonwealth - income tax is an example - and the Commonwealth can and does cede powers to the States, including over Commonwealth Property.

Thus we have the real authority for Commonwealth owned airports being the Commonwealth Places (Application of Laws) Act and intergovernmental deals it enables. Good luck wading through that one, but it has the practical benefit of allowing NSW Police to come and investigate an assault in a Centrelink office in say Ballina, for such an offence to be brought before the local state courts, for the Commonwealth and the States to work up deals, and so on.

Deals like these support the AFP operation in 11 airports under the All-in policing model adopted in 2009, which replaced the clumsier arrangement with both State and Federal police having roles in major airports. Interesting that Cairns Airport isn’t a Commonwealth place as a whole, although of course the AFP and Customs areas there would be Commonwealth property.

Of course, in practice all the public entrances to OOL are to Queensland, which gives Queensland the authority when it comes to exiting the airport. And any direct access from NSW on the NSW side would require construction - such as roads, carparks and entrances - and of course some tripartite intergovernmental agreement which doesn’t seem practical for an issue which would be on foot for at most a few months. The idea of public access via airside access entrances from NSW struck me as rather absurd.

That said, have to say the Gladys and Anna show has not been the most inspiring. Sydney was an interstate hotspot (requiring quarantine on return to Qld) but that restriction was lifted on 14 May. Four days later, Queensland warns it may keep the border shut till September. It all went downhill from there. And of course there were mysterious cases in Central Queensland since then, apparently community transmission. But Queensland hasn’t taken down its current roadmap, which has interstate travel recommencing on 12 July, with two checkpoints between now and then. Plenty of opportunities for judicious backtracking from what was proclaimed as a maybe in the first case.

cheers skip
 
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justinbrett

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I grabbed a packet of popcorn before I read this thread - knew it would be a goody. :cool:

According to BNK airport, it currently has four flights a week to Sydney, and two more via Newcastle. Gold Coast Airport has understandably called for clarity about the opening date For the Queensland border. It currently claims to have three flights a week, which IIRC are all to Sydney. Which left me wondering about the relevance of the arguments about transit passengers and what the big deal over OOL was.

There is a myth that all airports are “Federal airports”. I think it would be fair to say there are 11 that you could kind of say this about - those being the 11 where the Federal Police provide policing services, 10 of which are owned by the Commonwealth. Other airports are mostly owned by Local Councils or privately.

The other myth is that the states’ jurisdiction is ousted altogether from Commonwealth Airports and other Commonwealth property. Not how our Federal Model works, as worked up by a brace of Constitutions, Parliaments and COAG meetings, and more recently the National Cabinet. Of course s52 of the Commonwealth constitution gives the Commonwealth exclusive jurisdiction over places acquired by the Commonwealth for public purposes, but most Commonwealth Powers are in the long list in s51, which are concurrent with the states. Thus the Commonwealth can make laws about aspects of Aviation within their powers, and so can the states without the s51 limitation. While Commonwealth laws prevail if there is inconsistency, everone seeks to avoid that anyway. The boundaries are not fixed, for example para 51(xxxvii) gives the States the ability to cede powers to the Commonwealth - income tax is an example - and the Commonwealth can and does cede powers to the States, including over Commonwealth Property.

Thus we have the real authority for Commonwealth owned airports being the Commonwealth Places (Application of Laws) Act and intergovernmental deals it enables. Good luck wading through that one, but it has the practical benefit of allowing NSW Police to come and investigate an assault in a Centrelink office in say Ballina, for such an offence to be brought before the local state courts, for the Commonwealth and the States to work up deals, and so on.

Deals like these support the AFP operation in 11 airports under the All-in policing model adopted in 2009, which replaced the clumsier arrangement with both State and Federal police having roles in major airports. Interesting that Cairns Airport isn’t a Commonwealth place as a whole, although of course the AFP and Customs areas there would be Commonwealth property.

Of course, in practice all the public entrances to OOL are to Queensland, which gives Queensland the authority when it comes to exiting the airport. And any direct access from NSW on the NSW side would require construction - such as roads, carparks and entrances - and of course some tripartite intergovernmental agreement which doesn’t seem practical for an issue which would be on foot for at most a few months. The idea of public access via airside access entrances from NSW struck me as rather absurd.

That said, have to say the Gladys and Anna show has not been the most inspiring. Sydney was an interstate hotspot (requiring quarantine on return to Qld) but that restriction was lifted on 14 May. Four days later, Queensland warns it may keep the border shut till September. It all went downhill from there. And of course there were mysterious cases in Central Queensland since then, apparently community transmission. But Queensland hasn’t taken down its current roadmap, which has interstate travel recommencing on 12 July, with two checkpoints between now and then. Plenty of opportunities for judicious backtracking from what was proclaimed as a maybe in the first case.

cheers skip
Its not a myth about which airports are federal, and no guesswork is required. You‘ve quoted one act but the authority is actually the Airports Act (1996) Looks like the list is the similar but this one has 13 including the two Joint User (shared with RAAF - Darwin & Townsville) plus the new Sydney West Airport. Additionally, Newcastle and Learmonth are also federal airports by virtue they are classified as Military airfields with a civilian terminal lease.

(1) For the purposes of this Act, each of the following airports is a core regulated airport:

(a) Sydney (Kingsford‑Smith) Airport;

(b) Sydney West Airport;

(c) Melbourne (Tullamarine) Airport;

(d) Brisbane Airport;

(e) Perth Airport;

(f) Adelaide Airport;

(g) Gold Coast Airport;

(h) Hobart International Airport;

(i) Launceston Airport;

(j) Alice Springs Airport;

(k) Canberra Airport;

(l) Darwin International Airport;

(m) Townsville Airport;

(n) an airport specified in the regulations, where the site of the airport is a Commonwealth place.
The act also deals with the state law issue, by saying state laws apply as much as possible where they co-exist with federal law. A state law barring another state from federal land is unlikely to be legal (and to be fair, is not the Queensland position).
 

PineappleSkip

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Horses for courses and different Acts have different purposes. I was only referring to the myth that "all airports are Federal airports". In fact the term "Federal Airport" no longer appears in Commonwealth Law. There was of course a Federal Airports Corporation long ago and an Act establishing it which talked a lot about Federal Airports.

I referred to the COPAL Act because it operates to set practical rules about how States and the Commonwealth can work together in relation to Commonwealth property, The four provisions in the Airports Act about States Laws all indicate the "intention of Parliament", which IIRC is used with provisions indicating to the courts how Parliament wants the relevant provisions to the read - in this case in light of coextensive States Laws. Three (sections 61, 149 and 177) indicate that Parts 2 (leasing and ownership), Part 7 (Accounts and Reports) and part 11 (Certain activities such as liquor sales) should not set aside co-extensive states laws. Section 136 indicates that the Commonwealth Parliament wants Division 3 of Part 6 (about Environmental standards, State land planning, etc) should set aside State Laws where inconsistent - much to the chagrin of Brisbane City Council's planning scheme and Brisbane Airport's interesting ventures.

Cheers skip
 

Vic

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But Clinicians have little experience with the control of epidemics.An epidemiologist particularly one actively participating in research into Australian influenza epidemics has a lot more knowledge pertaining to this pandemic than most clinicians.In a much better position to comment on border closures in particular.
I'm glad you agree then, that currency of clinical experience isn't that relevant to epidemiology. Makes me wonder why lack of recent clinical experience was a criticism of the chief health officer...
 

drron

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Vic I am a clinician and have been so for 50 years.My specialty training was in Respiratory medicine and I have been in charge of an influenza ward in recent years.
Therefore I believe that the Commonwealth Deputy CMO is far more qualified than the QLD CHO to comment on the medical issues of this pandemic.
My comments on the QLD CHO have not changed.
 

Vic

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Vic I am a clinician and have been so for 50 years.My specialty training was in Respiratory medicine and I have been in charge of an influenza ward in recent years.
Therefore I believe that the Commonwealth Deputy CMO is far more qualified than the QLD CHO to comment on the medical issues of this pandemic.
My comments on the QLD CHO have not changed.
My comment is about your justification for that opinion. You criticised the Qld CHO based on his lack of recent clinical experience. when pushed on this point you've now said clinical experience is not relevant to epidemiology. Great that you have an opinion (informed as it is), the issue is attempting to renege the basis of that opinion when challenged.
I still believe that pronouncements about "medical reason" and "clinical experience" is suspiciously like an attempt to create some kind of intellectual pedestal beyond reproach of mere mortals.

I'm pretty sure you're not the only medical specialist in Australia...
 

drron

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Absolutely Vic but I was replying to your thread that I agreed clinicians had no experience in epidemiology when what i was saying in viral pandemics the epidemiologist has more knowledge about the spread of the disease and steps to contain that spread such as whether State borders should be closed
.In that respect the Deputy Commonwealth CMO has more experience than the QLD CHO.she is a woman by the way.

However when it comes to the treatment of the disease the clinicians - especially in infectious diseases,respiratory medicine,,ICU and Emergency specialists would have more knowledge and experience than either of them.I slot in below that group.

And another thing if the decision to keep the border closed is based on health grounds why then does the QLD CHO admit there are no Covid hot spots in NSW and only 3 in Victoria.As a Queenslander who will be returning I do not have to undertake quarantine unless i am coming from a hot spot for Covid.
 

DC3

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As we know, many people (including travellers) have short memories. Most of this will be forgotten and we move on, to somewhere near normal.
 

jakeseven7

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As we know, many people (including travellers) have short memories. Most of this will be forgotten and we move on, to somewhere near normal.
Wow lovely for us travellers, tell that to the tourist operators going bankrupt in QLD, sure they won’t forget as easy as you suggest...
 

DC3

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As we know, many people (including travellers) have short memories. Most of this will be forgotten and we move on, to somewhere near normal.
Wow lovely for us travellers, tell that to the tourist operators going bankrupt in QLD, sure they won’t forget as easy as you suggest...
We all move on. Some just take a bit longer than others.
 

DC3

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That’s true, going through a business failure really slows you down. :rolleyes:
And many have already gone broke, even not being borderline a few months back, with many more to follow. Some will never get back up again unfortunately.
 

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