USA Air Traffic Controllers - Still safe to travel to the USA?

[juddles]

I do not understand why anyone would think an ex-pilot is necessarily a good choice for air traffic control. Sure, the understanding of the realities of flying could appear to be attractive. But how many people in the world set out to be a pilot because they actually want to become an air traffic controller? It may be more real that those "ex-pilots" are not only available for ATC work because they failed at that initial profession, but additionally they are disgruntled "wanna-be" pilots. I would believe that ATC is a meticulous yet somewhat repetitive and almost "boring" job. I do not think that the average person who sought to be a pilot is perfect for this.

 

[Moody]

....When I wrote my review of the hotel on Tripadvisor I said that my only complaint was that their TV stations had Fox Sports, Fox Kids, Fox Movies but did not have Fox News......

Ahhhhh...... a moment of pure hilarity in a cesspit of trolling ..... Thanks Renato!

 

[marki]

Tucker Carlson and Fox 'News'?

I'd want a better source.

Ketchup

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I do not understand why anyone would think an ex-pilot is necessarily a good choice for air traffic control. Sure, the understanding of the realities of flying could appear to be attractive. But how many people in the world set out to be a pilot because they actually want to become an air traffic controller? It may be more real that those "ex-pilots" are not only available for ATC work because they failed at that initial profession, but additionally they are disgruntled "wanna-be" pilots. I would believe that ATC is a meticulous yet somewhat repetitive and almost "boring" job. I do not think that the average person who sought to be a pilot is perfect for this.

Apparently, the reasoning is that they have a better grasp of things like aircraft speed, separation, wake turbulence (etc). Perhaps there are pilots looking for a career change (medical grounds, family?). Perhaps veterans are potentially more comfortable with training and things like discipline and shift work? Who knows.

But I agree - if ATC is being treated as a 'fall back' I don't see how that brings many advantages over someone who is genuinely passionate about the job (and, of course, can demonstrate the required skills). A bit like cabin crew. You have to be young and good looking to get a foot in the door. Translates into nothing once you are up in the air where perhaps experience and a genuine passion for customer care (and safety) would be preferable to many of us.

 

[straitman]

I am still reading through the thread but can I please put something to bed?

I know hundreds or even thousands of pilots* and everyone that I know would take the worst flying job over the best ATC job. None of them would actually choose to be an Air Traffic Controller. I do know a lot of Air Traffic Controllers who would love to be pilots though. WE had three fail our Air Force pilots course who became ATC but not initially by choice.

pilots* Student, Private, Commercial, Airline and Military.

ie Continually rattling on about pilots as ATC is a waste of breath as it ain't going to happen.

Also the best ATC will frequently be the ones you don't think of. They sit in the back of an AWACs looking over a war zone or work as controllers for fighter operations which are a lot faster and a lot less predictable.

 

[JohnK]

Renato - only you can decide if you are going to cancel all your future travel to America based on a news report. For me, I have zero concerns.

I wouldn't be cancelling plans based on who is being hired to be a traffic controller.

And aren't all news sources biased on way or another?

 

[Renato1]

Yes, the aptitude test questions are not in dispute. But you cannot assume from that that there's no ambiguity. We only have one side of the story. Through the eyes of Fox.

And the only reason we only have one side of the story from Fox News, is that no one responsible for implementing the biographical criteria wants to come on the program and defend

The likelihood a Republican, appearing on Fox, would have an agenda to criticise the previous Obama administration is reasonably high. The same as we see here in Australia when incumbent governments like to blame a previous government led by another party.

Yes, the aptitude test questions are not in dispute. But you cannot assume from that that there's no ambiguity. We only have one side of the story. Through the eyes of Fox.

Those questions in the entrance test are potentially irrelevant to the final outcome. The process might be that out of 100 people tested 50 are not suitable. But of the 50 remaining, they are going to be just as good as the ex pilots or ex military once they have been fully trained. And the Fox story backs that up. Those not suitable are weeded out. And that would include ex pilots and ex military who are deemed not suitable.



Once you have done the training, it doesn't matter what your previous occupation was. If you have passed the tests, passed your training, it means you can do the job.

As was pointed out above, in Australia all you need to apply to be an air traffic controller is a year 12 certificate.

There are all sorts of reasons why people may wish to re-enter the workforce. There are all sorts of reasons why people might work at starbucks. In and of itself, working at starbucks doesn't make a person valueless and useless.



Cheating is not good. But as the clip states, this would only have only been of benefit at the initial stages of the application. There was no evidence in the clip posted that this would not lead to an unsuitable person being weeded out at a later stage in the process.

Interesting that one of the interviewees states that ATC was simply a 'fall-back' for them. Who would you rather have as a controller? Someone with passion, or someone just treating the job as a 'fall-back'? I know which one I would want.

Fox news may not be making up evidence, but they are presenting information in a certain way to suit their story. The critical issue is the final outcome. While there is a risk that a diverse hiring policy may compromise safety, where is the evidence to support that that was an actual outcome?

Thanks. If I can summarize the difference in our opinions, I suggest that it would be this.
Your's is that having passed the testing and being qualified, the new ATCs can do the job.

Mine is that yes we have such qualifications all over the place in all areas of life, And Universities will give degrees to people who pass the course, but they will also give out First and Second class Honours to those who are outstanding. Similarly, that is why despite doing the same courses, many medical specialists can charge a lot more for their services than their peers. So, in cutting out the best candidates via the biographical data in favour of people off the street, one is unlikely to be selecting the best of the best/above average ATCs, but rather the second best/average ATCs. That is a drop in standards.

Similarly, as Carlson now has leaked correspondence from the creator of the biographical data questionnaire, stating that it will not produce the best outcome for recruiting ATCs - is there not more to this question of standards?
Regards,
Renato

 

[Renato1]

Fox News controversies - Wikipedia

This is perhaps the easist link to provide, like all Wikipedia articles don't read the article, instead see the references.

Now before you comment that there are similar articles for the other major us media organisations, yes there are. All media organisations have bias and controversies even independant center ones like our ABC has a degree of bias in their reporting.

That's why it's important to view news from many sources, don't take anything at face value, and apply critical thinking to any story provided, including asking the question "why are they reporting on such a story"

The Fox News Controversies in Wikipedia shows two minor incidents over decades where Fox apologised for inaccurate reporting, one being from a mix-up by a video editor.

You stated "That said the news organisation's have a lot of wiggle room in how they present their facts as news. They don't have to present the full story, they can cherry pick what they want to tell and they can present it in any way they like, including with misleading headlines provided they don't flat out lie. "
which indicated that you did not believe Fox News reporting of facts.

While the opinions of presenters/hosts are plainly conservative at Fox News, which seems to be the main beef in the Wikipedia article, that does not translate to biased reporting of facts in the manner that you suggest. And even if it were so, Fox News regularly gets on people from both sides of an argument, so that any perceived factual inaccuracy in what was reported will be called out by one of the guests. Hence Carlson's annoyance that he could not get a single person to come on the show and challenge the Lawyer that he was interviewing on this matter.

I still think that your statement "This isn't a left vs right thing, both sides of the media does this. It's just Fox news is notorious for doing so." in relation to News reporting of facts remains unsupported.
Regards,
Renato

 

[odysseus]

And the only reason we only have one side of the story from Fox News, is that no one responsible for implementing the biographical criteria wants to come on the program and defend

Why would they want to? Why should they? They could actually do real work... or spend time arguing about something that doesn't change anything consequential.

It's a bit like climate change denial. The deniers will keep finding some argument to justify their "doubt" in spite of all the scientific evidence. Same thing with other one sided sources.

 

[Renato1]

Renato1 said: ↑
....When I wrote my review of the hotel on Tripadvisor I said that my only complaint was that their TV stations had Fox Sports, Fox Kids, Fox Movies but did not have Fox News.

Ahhhhh...... a moment of pure hilarity in a cesspit of trolling ..... Thanks Renato!

I was being serious. If one watches Tucker Carlson even just occasionally, one realises that the American Democrat Party is now more Left than our Greens party (I've never heard one of our Greens Party spokespeople say that migrants shouldn't be deported if they commit serious crimes in Australia - but the Democrats regularly argue this).

And if one watches Hannity, the drama about surveillance of Trump campaign associates, the FBI using a CIA operative to spy on the Trump campaign, the FBI using a fake document to get a FISA warrant on one campaign member (which meant they could effectively read nearly all the emails in the Trump campaign), the love SMSs between FBI agent Strozk and his mistress who worked for the FBI Deputy Director..... wel, it is just rivetting viewing that goes on every night. Watergate was nothing in comparison to this. And heaps better than watching House of Cards.
Regards,
Renato

 

[Renato1]

Why would they want to? Why should they? They could actually do real work... or spend time arguing about something that doesn't change anything consequential.

It's a bit like climate change denial. The deniers will keep finding some argument to justify their "doubt" in spite of all the scientific evidence. Same thing with other one sided sources.

Why should they?
Maybe because it is their job to look after the Agencies they are in charge of, and respond to requests for information?

If someone slammed my Agency with incorrect information or facts, I'd demand to be on the show to set the facts rights for the public - all 2,6 million who had been misled by Fox News.

But you don't seem to think that the appropriate course of action for the Administrator of the FAA - who's job it is to assure the American public about air safety - is to go on to the Fox show and reassure the American public about plane safety, because you feel his time is to valuable.

Interesting, that you think his time is too valuable to do his job. He doesn't have any staff who could do that task in his place maybe? .

Regards,
Renato

 

[Renato1]

ie Continually rattling on about pilots as ATC is a waste of breath as it ain't going to happen.
.

Maybe she wants a job where she can stay home and be closer to the kids?
Cheers,
Renato

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Similarly, that is why despite doing the same courses, many medical specialists can charge a lot more for their services than their peers. So, in cutting out the best candidates via the biographical data in favour of people off the street, one is unlikely to be selecting the best of the best/above average ATCs, but rather the second best/average ATCs. That is a drop in standards.

Any link between the fees charged by medical specialists and the quality of outcome has been pretty much 100% debunked. There is no link! Some very good surgeons charge high fees, and some poor ones charge high fees. And the same for the reverse. You cannot forecast the outcome based on the fee you pay.

The Inspector's report is a more balanced review into the hiring practices of the FAA. You'll see from that there were thousands of applicants, but only a few made it though. So whether they are ex military, or from the general pool, you are still getting the best of the applicants. You'd have to check, but I think it is quite different from university - a 50% mark isn't going to get you a pass to get into the control tower.

Many airlines hire from the air force. While the skill is not in doubt, it was known on occasion to cause problems with chain of command. It was likely a contributing factor to at least one major accident, involving loss of life, when 'juniors' did not challenge their seniors during an emergency. That's one of the examples of why we had a whole body of work on crew resource management.

The evidence that is lacking is a link between the hiring policies and the effect on safety. Is there any?

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Why should they?
Maybe because it is their job to look after the Agencies they are in charge of, and respond to requests for information?

If someone slammed my Agency with incorrect information or facts, I'd demand to be on the show to set the facts rights for the public - all 2,6 million who had been misled by Fox News.

But you don't seem to think that the appropriate course of action for the Administrator of the FAA - who's job it is to assure the American public about air safety - is to go on to the Fox show and reassure the American public about plane safety, because you feel his time is to valuable.

Interesting, that you think his time is too valuable to do his job. He doesn't have any staff who could do that task in his place maybe? .

Regards,
Renato

It's not generally the job of public servants to go on political programs with a political agenda.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Maybe she wants a job where she can stay home and be closer to the kids?
Cheers,
Renato

Then she can apply to work on a short-haul roster that brings her back to home base each day. And note there are strict requirements for commercial pilot hours - IIRC 90 to 100 hours a month. That will give time to be at home with the family, perhaps more so than shift work in a tower.

 

[straitman]

Maybe she wants a job where she can stay home and be closer to the kids?
Cheers,
Renato

There are plenty of good flying jobs around where people/pilots go home every night.
Never say never but pilots do not transfer to become ATC.

 

[Quickstatus]

Ex pilots generally “ex” because of an age cutoff. When they reach this cutoff they are usually of “retirement” age.

Most who reach this age tend to have enough passive income to retire on so I can’t see them wanting a 2nd career in another part of the airline industry which is quite stressful and involve weird hours.

 

[jb747]

Rest peacefully. US ATC has not been materially changed by this.

It was always horrible.

 

[jb747]

Ex pilots generally “ex” because of an age cutoff. When they reach this cutoff they are usually of “retirement” age.

Most who reach this age tend to have enough passive income to retire on so I can’t see them wanting a 2nd career in another part of the airline industry which is quite stressful and involve weird hours.

There are about 60,000 pilot licences on issue in Australia. There are about 80 A380 Captains. In total there would be only about 6,000 airline pilot jobs. It is basically a pyramid, with people dropping out at all points along the way. So, whilst it would be very unlikely that any ex airline pilot would be interested, I suspect there are others who would. And pilots aren't the only aircrew..I think navigators still exist (though I doubt that they are called that, and they probably don't navigate).

As for income...only if they obeyed #1 rule of 'pilots' financial advice'.

 

[Quickstatus]

Yes. I think the ones who exit early tend to search for other flight deck positions - often in other countries.