United Airlines argues ‘window seat’ does not mean ‘seat with a window’

[moa999]

Pretty sure on almost every airline contract seats aren't guaranteed.
And on almost every aircraft model there will be windowless seats, typically where fuselage joins are.

But id want a refund if I ended up in that seat after selecting window. Different if one specifically selected that seat from a seatmap that showed no window.

 

[Ade]

Instead of using Window, Aisle and Middle seats, using Inner, Aisle and Middle position - may imply that the pax will be seated at the Inner position), but no guarantee of a view window.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Instead of using Window, Aisle and Middle seats, using Inner, Aisle and Middle position - may imply that the pax will be seated at the Inner position), but no guarantee of a view window.

Inner means inside though… so aisle!

The system has served us well for 80 years? I don’t think we need to change it.

Just change the seat map to indicate seats without windows

 

[Quickstatus]

Just change the seat map to indicate seats without windows

They do indicate overwing exits, so not a stretch to indicate wall seats, but what actually constitutes a window seat?.
In my view it is only a window seat when the passenger can control the shade (notwithstanding cabin crew instructions).

There are seats positioned in such a way that it is between normal windows, not because of a missing window.

 

[Warragul]

There are seats positioned in such a way that it is between normal windows, not because of a missing window.

Embraers have a few of them

 

[justinbrett]

Even when paid.

QF doesn’t sell window seats.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

QF doesn’t sell window seats.

A and F/K seats are available for purchase, particularly for those without FF membership, or for flights originating outside of australia.

Cross referencing with seat preferences that equates to window (and aisle) seats.

Dun guarantee a view though,

 

[Quickstatus]

QF doesn’t sell window seats.

Next time speak to the call centre and ask them to move your seat assignment to a "window" seat.
They understand "window" seats and will gladly sell you a ticket with a "window" seat assignment

(Even though they don't charge extra for window seats per se).

 

[justinbrett]

A and F/K seats are available for purchase, particularly for those without FF membership, or for flights originating outside of australia.

Cross referencing with seat preferences that equates to window (and aisle) seats.

Dun guarantee a view though,

QF never claims them to be window seats. Have a look yourself. Pick the middle seat in that same row and it’s the same price. Whatever assumptions you come up with are just that.

There’s no cross referencing with seat preferences as when they are used there is no fee.

Next time speak to the call centre and ask them to move your seat assignment to a "window" seat.
They understand "window" seats and will gladly sell you a ticket with a "window" seat assignment

(Even though they don't charge extra for window seats per se).

I don’t know how to make it any clearer, you don’t pay extra to request a window seat with QF so I don’t know how you can claim you’re being shortchanged.

I get the original argument against UA because they explicitly label the seat “window seat” and are charging a fee. You said UA should follow QF and I agree, in this instance, that argument wouldn’t work against QF.

 

[flyingfan]

Extremely disingenuous for UA to claim a window seat doesn't mean a window. We ought to counter-claim that paying for our tickets doesn't mean we'll pay the full amount, or before the flight, or to UA...

 

[Quickstatus]

I don’t know how to make it any clearer, you don’t pay extra to request a window seat with QF so I don’t know how you can claim you’re being shortchanged.

I never claimed they did. My post about taking a leaf out of QF playbook was about something completely different to QF labelling or not labelling seats. It was about selling something but calling it something else.

I don't know how to make it clearer but I'll try...

Qantas tried to use an argument that they don't sell tickets but a bundle of rights (which qantas has since agreed to withdraw using that as a defence). And UA could take that idea right out of Qantas' playbook. Sell the window seat but when someone complains, call it a bundle of rights not necessarily a window seat per se.

 

[justinbrett]

Qantas tried to use an argument that they don't sell tickets but a bundle of rights (which qantas has since agreed to withdraw using that as a defence). And UA could take that idea right out of Qantas' playbook. Sell the window seat but when someone complains, call it a bundle of rights not necessarily a window seat per se.

I think you’re just trying to recycle old jokes - but the serious point is they can just sell it as a seat, show a seat map, and let people make up their own minds

UA was undone because they specifically label it as a window seat, where there was no requirement to do so. AA don’t label it either from what I can see.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Qantas tried to use an argument that they don't sell tickets but a bundle of rights (which qantas has since agreed to withdraw using that as a defence). And UA could take that idea right out of Qantas' playbook. Sell the window seat but when someone complains, call it a bundle of rights not necessarily a window seat per se.

Your airline ticket is STILL a bundle of rights. That’s legal fact. Your ticket is NOT a guarantee of carriage on a particular flight, as you yourself agreed to, above where you said the expectation is to get on ‘an’ aircraft (rather than a particular flight).

That is completely different to an airline’s sale of a windows seat. They’re not even in the same ballpark.

QF never claims them to be window seats. Have a look yourself. Pick the middle seat in that same row and it’s the same price. Whatever assumptions you come up with are just that.

There’s no cross referencing with seat preferences as when they are used there is no fee.

The price you pay for the seat is irrelevant.

You made the claim Qantas doesn’t charge for window seats, the fact is they do. Doesn’t matter if that the same price as a middle or aisle, people can choose to select their seats in advance, and can pick that seat off the seat map.

 

[dajop]

We can have arguments one way or another. But really, I'm afraid no airline sells true window seats , except maybe some carriers in First.



(image courtesy of AI of course).

 

[justinbrett]

You made the claim Qantas doesn’t charge for window seats, the fact is they do. Doesn’t matter if that the same price as a middle or aisle, people can choose to select their seats in advance, and can pick that seat off the seat map.

It’s a statement of fact.

QF has three categories for Y seats that it sells (for some it is free but it’s the same process with $0 shown).



There is no mention of window or aisle. What you choose is up to you.

The difference with UA is highlighted because they do reference window seats.

 

[Quickstatus]

Your airline ticket is STILL a bundle of rights. That’s legal fact. Your ticket is NOT a guarantee of carriage on a particular flight,

Well, that was going to be tested in court but it didn't get to a court judgement on whether a ticket could legally just be a bundle of rights or whether the consumer laws prevail.

In the end, there was a settlement with the ACCC (the $120milion settlement) and Qantas importantly agreed to no longer use "bundle of rights" as a legal defence regardless of whether a ticket has some bundle of rights...

In the view of many legal authorities, Qantas was in serious risk of being found to have engaged in misleading conduct regardless of the "bundle of rights defence".
......


Again, it is not whether UA was legally right about whether a window seat must be a window accessible seat or not. My point is that passengers have expectations - some reasonable and often unreasonable. I'm just pointing out that it is reasonable if sold a window seat, that the seat should have a window seat. This is of course different to an involuntary seat swop from a window seat to some other seat. In this case the airline asserts it's a window seat even though it's does not have a window. It's like ordering Fish and chips but not getting chips even though the menu says fish and chips or Boneless chicken and finding out that it has bones despite what you paid for.

While Qantas has strictly nothing to do with this, Using Qantas not selling window seats per se, it would go like this:
Passenger calling call centre: can you give me a window seat
Call centre: yes I've allocated you a window seat
Passenger then complains that the seat did not have a window but was a wall.
Call centre: sorry we don't sell window seats.

Most people understand absurdity.
An airline ticket being only a bundle of rights is absurd. A wall seat called a window seat is absurd.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

It’s a statement of fact.

QF has three categories for Y seats that it sells (for some it is free but it’s the same process with $0 shown).

View attachment 482325

There is no mention of window or aisle. What you choose is up to you.

The difference with UA is highlighted because they do reference window seats.

They sell window seats: https://www.qantas.com/au/en/travel-info/seat-selection.html

Opening blurb says:

Seating options​

Whether you like the window seat, want some space to stretch out, or looking to secure a Seat with Bassinet, we’ve got the information you need to know when selecting your seat

 

[justinbrett]

They sell window seats: https://www.qantas.com/au/en/travel-info/seat-selection.html

Opening blurb says:

Seating options​

Whether you like the window seat, want some space to stretch out, or looking to secure a Seat with Bassinet, we’ve got the information you need to know when selecting your seat

Well by that logic they also sell use of a seat belt, a tray table and a recline function

QF doesn’t sell window seats, they sell categories of seat selection.
If you do try to select a “windowless window seat”, you get a warning:

 

[RooFlyer]

QF doesn’t sell window seats, they sell categories of seat selection.
If you do try to select a “windowless window seat”, you get a warning:

Is a 'window seat' (not necessarily one with a window) one of the seat categories they sell?

And if you continue with the warning 'does not have a window', will it still charge you?

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Is a 'window seat' (not necessarily one with a window) one of the seat categories they sell?

And if you continue with the warning 'does not have a window', will it still charge you?

It has nothing to do with categories… that’s a red herring.

Qantas is selling seat selection, and you get to select, and pay, for your seat of choice.

As qantas says, you may want the window. Paying for seat selection allows you to do that.