The demise of the flying kangaroo?

[leadman]

Not really, whilst QF can certain take some leeway in how strongly they enforce their rules, ultimately in my mind, enforcing a pre-agreed upon set of rules does not indicate that the company is in decline. There could be a whole range of factors behind enforcement of the rules, including not wanting to create a precedent, to bean counters getting more power over customer relations.

Looks like we will differ in our opinions; I see those little things in operating a business gaining the loyalty of customers. Even in my industry of metals, customer service is the differentiator of doing business and I think it is even a bigger driver in the airline industry. I've been with companies going under ie Pasminco, and your factors ring too many bells, almost anti-customer service. Time will tell.......

 

[harvyk]

Looks like we will differ in our opinions; I see those little things in operating a business gaining the loyalty of customers. Even in my industry of metals, customer service is the differentiator of doing business and I think it is even a bigger driver in the airline industry. I've been with companies going under ie Pasminco, and your factors ring too many bells, almost anti-customer service. Time will tell.......

I don't think we differ as much as you think... Whilst I certainly think there can be reasons for companies getting tighter on the rules other than the company is in trouble (eg the bean counters have taken over the asylum), I also think that QF need's to be careful with just how strongly they do come down on the rules. Since as you have said in a previous post, sticking to the letter of the rule book is one of JQ's biggest failings, since it does not allow the little bit of leeway (although in JQ's case, that leeway only goes in one direction) which both sides are used to giving and which ultimately make a non price focused business successful.

 

[leadman]

I don't think we differ as much as you think... Whilst I certainly think there can be reasons for companies getting tighter on the rules other than the company is in trouble (eg the bean counters have taken over the asylum), I also think that QF need's to be careful with just how strongly they do come down on the rules. Since as you have said in a previous post, sticking to the letter of the rule book is one of JQ's biggest failings, since it does not allow the little bit of leeway (although in JQ's case, that leeway only goes in one direction) which both sides are used to giving and which ultimately make a non price focused business successful.

Agree, and I think it shows they are walking a fine line. I personally hope it pays off in some way for all of us. I just hope QF doesn't adopt the JQ rulebook!

 

[Dick Savage]

.... No doubt you hold qantas to any terms and / or conditions in the contract which are of benefit to you and would complain bitterly if they (sic) didn't honour their (sic) side of the agreement ...?

Better yet, I long long long ago (last flight Chrismas Eve 1983 F SIN SYD) quit even considering buying from Qantas.

In the way SAA was unmistakenly a sub-branch of the South African Railways, massively-mobbed-up-unionised Qantas might easily have been thought to be but a sub-branch of the Labor potty.

If it's now staring down the barrel of its own demise, it and its votaries might reflect long and hard on then British Prime Minister Margeret Thatcher's admonition, (which you will appreciate I am but paraphrasing) that socialism's problems lie in the inevitability of it eventually running out of other people's money.

Vale, Qantas?

 

[maninblack]

If I look back 10 years and look at my extended family then around 8 out of 10 overseas trips would have been with QF as at least the initial carrier ex Australia. It would now be around twice as many trips/tickets per year and be about 2 out of 10 with QF.

 

[Awesom Andy]

If I look back 10 years and look at my extended family then around 8 out of 10 overseas trips would have been with QF as at least the initial carrier ex Australia. It would now be around twice as many trips/tickets per year and be about 2 out of 10 with QF.

While I still get on a QF plane every now and then, the rest of my family has went from 100% Qantas 10 years ago to zero since a couple of years ago with the exception of award redemptions via my WP account (hoping for slightly greater availability).

 

[codash1099]

I'll know things are really bad when they stop worrying about olives in the salad and start removing the button holes from the J serviettes.

 

[leadman]

You have to remember they probably paid Perry to design an olive free salad and Morrisey to redesign the napkins so they become a trendy item; "sans" button holes......

 

[harvyk]

<snip>
Better yet, I long long long ago (last flight Chrismas Eve 1983 F SIN SYD) quit even considering buying from Qantas.
<snip>

Just quickly, I know that everyone is entitled to an opinion, but if you haven't even considered buying from Qantas in the last 31 years, what would you actually know about Qantas in this day and age?

Just a quick recap on what has happened to QF in the last 31 years...

1. They went from being an international only airline to both a Int / Dom operation...
2. They completely took over TN
3. Their largest competitor (which wasn't even a competitor of theirs back in 1983) went belly up handing them the dom J travel market for effectively 10 years.
4. Every single aircraft which was in operation back in 1983 has been retired, most of them don't even exist as aircraft anymore
5. They've up'ed the ante on J class more times than you can poke a stick at. The idea of chair which converted into a "bed" whilst flying was virtually unheard of back then, and certainly not in J.
6. Alan Joyce would have been a work experience kid back then. (whether he is a fit for QF or not he can obviously run airlines, eg JQ)
7. One world hadn't even been thought of
8. I'm not sure if QFF had been thought of or not, but in any case it would have been in it's absolute infancy if it did exist.
9. IFE has been transformed from handing you a paper on boarding + perhaps a movie on the main screen to full AVOD to all classes on most flights.

To put it bluntly, you commenting on QF demising would be like me stating that I knew everything about UA based on my flights with CO back in 1991.

 

[Melburnian1]

One other thing, of course, harvyk.

QF has gone from an at times profitable operation to one that is now bleeding cash.

It has also substantially lost international market share (even if JQ is included.) There might be lots of reasons for this, but one contributing factor is that many of us no longer consider QF a good value for money provider. Perhaps that's unfair at times, but it's a widespread perception particularly for international flights when prospective passengers compare QF against Asian airlines.

 

[Himeno]

Perhaps that's unfair at times, but it's a widespread perception particularly for international flights when prospective passengers compare QF against Asian airlines.

The Asian airlines also don't have the media bashing them every time something minor happens.
There has been 2 stories in the media about MH (1 emergency landing at HKG enroute to ICN and one turn back to KUL enroute to India) which wouldn't have even been mentioned had MH370 not disappeared.
The media attacks QF for doing things VA does, with no mention that VA does them as well.
The perception of the general public is that QF should be avoided, because of the repeated media attacks.

I can't help but wonder if the media didn't attack Qantas so much would they be having as many problems as they have been.

 

[leadman]

Just quickly, I know that everyone is entitled to an opinion, but if you haven't even considered buying from Qantas in the last 31 years, what would you actually know about Qantas in this day and age?

Just a quick recap on what has happened to QF in the last 31 years...

1. They went from being an international only airline to both a Int / Dom operation...
2. They completely took over TN
3. Their largest competitor (which wasn't even a competitor of theirs back in 1983) went belly up handing them the dom J travel market for effectively 10 years.
4. Every single aircraft which was in operation back in 1983 has been retired, most of them don't even exist as aircraft anymore
5. They've up'ed the ante on J class more times than you can poke a stick at. The idea of chair which converted into a "bed" whilst flying was virtually unheard of back then, and certainly not in J.
6. Alan Joyce would have been a work experience kid back then. (whether he is a fit for QF or not he can obviously run airlines, eg JQ)
7. One world hadn't even been thought of
8. I'm not sure if QFF had been thought of or not, but in any case it would have been in it's absolute infancy if it did exist.
9. IFE has been transformed from handing you a paper on boarding + perhaps a movie on the main screen to full AVOD to all classes on most flights.

To put it bluntly, you commenting on QF demising would be like me stating that I knew everything about UA based on my flights with CO back in 1991.

So what point are you trying to make?

- Newtown used to belong to the NSWRL
- AFL didnt exist 31 years ago
- Nokia was the most popular phone make just a few years back
- Pizza Hut had dine in restaurants
- And a mobile phone 31 years ago????
- My first computer had 12MB of memory 340k RAM
- The Sun was a paper in both Mel and Syd.
- We used to be a major producer of metals (not minerals)

Times change, markets change, companies change, life changes; remember Bond Corp, EldersIXL, Pacific Dunlop, etc, etc,. It was a question not a definative direction, but one has to just open up QF's flight magazine to see the diminishing "red" lines on their route map! quite different than a few years ago!

 

[desiredusername]

Qantas lost the plot and VA was marvellous. I'd happily look at United to/from the USA before looking at Qantas. Talk about Qantarse burning bridges.

 

[leadman]

The Asian airlines also don't have the media bashing them every time something minor happens.
There has been 2 stories in the media about MH (1 emergency landing at HKG enroute to ICN and one turn back to KUL enroute to India) which wouldn't have even been mentioned had MH370 not disappeared.
The media attacks QF for doing things VA does, with no mention that VA does them as well.
The perception of the general public is that QF should be avoided, because of the repeated media attacks.

I can't help but wonder if the media didn't attack Qantas so much would they be having as many problems as they have been.

Not totally true, last week in Dhaka Biman was being flogged in the media there. One story was they are suspended in flying to JFK for the past 8 years, but have had two staff stationed there in NYC, along with another in the Toronto. Futher they had 7 in the Manchester office but lost the rights about 3 years ago. Wouldnt mind having the NYC job!!!!!

 

[Pvcmenace]

One other thing, of course, harvyk.

QF has gone from an at times profitable operation to one that is now bleeding cash.

It has also substantially lost international market share (even if JQ is included.) There might be lots of reasons for this, but one contributing factor is that many of us no longer consider QF a good value for money provider. Perhaps that's unfair at times, but it's a widespread perception particularly for international flights when prospective passengers compare QF against Asian airlines.

Harvyk's analysis is valid and compliments your analysis such as:

Oil price preceeding losses varied between $18 and $70 per barrel. mostly prices were hedged in advance hence the sudden loss of good profitability after 2009.
Upon Qantas privatisation Australia was emerging out of a Recession, lower house prices, lower wages, lack of competition (Chinese airlines).

Now most industries are ruled by outlandish union agreements. Unionised people don't want to work more to deserve the money that they demand/paid. Therefore as a country we want more but do less. I would love to see what a Chinese road works team could do for $1million compared to Australian, then what would unions do to tackle their negotiations then!

 

[harvyk]

So what point are you trying to make?

My point is that the Qantas of 1983 (which was the last time Dick Savage thought about stepping foot on a Qantas plane) is a very different beast to the one we know and love (hate?) today. I was simply emphasising the variety of things which have changed in Qantas in the last 31 years, and how Dick Savage whilst is "entitled to his opinion" probably can not provide an accurate perspective on QF doing downhill over the last few years...

 

[medhead]

Sorry, how is QF deciding to actually enforce flight rules as described in the contract of sale considered proof that the airline is going down hill?

Qantas management are focusing on the money they didn't get, and are never going to get, for a flexi fare to bother worrying about 4 hours of food and beverage consumption. How is that not a sign of decline? Worrying about money they don't have and completely ignoring additional costs.

 

[DMMatlin]

I would love to see what a Chinese road works team could do for $1million compared to Australian, then what would unions do to tackle their negotiations then!

Really??? A person living in China has the same cost of living as someone in Australia???

Why not pick any even more appropriate cost of living comparison. Let's try comparing Australia to let's say....living on a remote island off the cost of Antarctica or maybe....a small village in Africa! That would be a much better comparison of the true cost of living to Sydney or Melbourne or small region town in Australia.

I have no understanding of the QF union agreements. But I wonder why it's always seen that the workforce must be the first to make a move on this stuff. How about we drop the wage of all management who's title begins with a C? Let's drop it from 40 or 50 times the cost of a Flight Attendant to something more reasonable like cap it at 25 times the cost of a Flight Attendant.

It has nothing to do with unionisation of the workforce, more to do with respect for everyone on the same team trying to achieve the same outcome... A strong viable company that allows all team members to work in a respectful environment whilst being able to live a decent life in the country they reside. (As opposed to finding the most unreasonable comparison to support an argument)

 

[Sprucegoose]

Agree, and I think it shows they are walking a fine line. I personally hope it pays off in some way for all of us. I just hope QF doesn't adopt the JQ rulebook!

Don't forget how Ansett used to operate. Huge leeway in terms of rules, great customer satisfaction but the coy wasn't well capitalised and then got Toomied.......

 

[serfty]

Don't forget how Ansett used to operate. Huge leeway in terms of rules, great customer satisfaction but the coy wasn't well capitalised and then got Toomied.......

Not Toomied ... More like a victim of serval things but mainly deregulation and bring unable to adapt. Cheapest 21 day Apex fare in 1984 was around $215 return - needed a Saturday night stay as well.

That would be worth over $600 today. ( http://www.rba.gov.au/calculator/)

So there was plenty of fat before deregulation.