The 6:30am BNE-SYD is gone and I am not on it [No ESTA]

[MEL_Traveller]

Interesting. Clause 13.2 (e) has the word "destination" with a lowercase d. Therefore, could it be argued that the last desination shown on the intinerary doesn't apply?

That's one of the issues. The ticket is not a BNE-SYD ticket (unless there was an agreed stopover factored into the ticket and priced accordingly for the fees and charges). The ticket was a BNE-LAX, via SYD.

In the event of IRROPS, VA would be under no obligation to transport the OP to SYD before LAX - they could have put them on the non-stop exBNE, or on another carrier. SYD is not an agreed point for the passenger to break their ticket.

'Destination' for the purpose of the OP's travel that day was LAX, not SYD.

 

[nlagalle]

Yes. Clear stupidity. Let's have a laugh at someone's misfortune? Hahaha.

I'm not laughing at your mistake John.

You keep harping on and on about domestic sector of an international flight yet employees of an airline have told you that is not a restriction of Sabre or Amadeus and multiple people have also explained situations where the same rules applied to them were not afforded to me.

I will say it again. A domestic flight is a domestic flight. VA check in staff should not be too concerned what happens when I get to the international aiport. If they focused more on customer service this situation would not have occurred.

It's obviously not John. Why? because I know someone not a few weeks ago who was in this exact same situation and they never got to BNE to fly to LAX. Of course the situation would not have occurred if you had the ESTA either. This isn't VA's fault.

And I have accepted that I made a mistake in not having an ESTA. And not having an ESTA is not reason to dny boarding on a domestic flight. As soon as it became clear that I was having issues with ESTA application I asked if I could be allowed to go to SYD and clear up the situation there. She went to see her supervisor to short check me through to SYD and that was the last I heard until I was told I would not be going on the flight I was booked to go on when I finally managed to pay for ESTA at ~6:10am. All of this happened so quickly.

Yes it clearly is because the flight is part of an international flight. see above where it's happened before (I know the person it happened to BTW).

Not sure what you are trying to achieve.

You keep saying it's your fault in one breath but are blaming VA in the other. This isn't VA's fault. whether they could have handled it better or not is only speculating as we weren't there. Had you arrived there with an ESTA and something they did caused you to miss your flight, then yes I'd be saying they screwed up.. but having the correct travels docs is the onus of the traveller. Can you imagine if you couldn't do it online? what if the ESTA didn't come through straight away.. As for letting you on the flight, when they do they are then responsible for it.

 

[Pushka]

Re: BNE-SYD-LAX-BNE VA Y US$266 on Orbitz [gone]

I am a Leo !

And I am a Gemini but insist on having multiple copies. One in the folder (filed according to date) when I may need it on the trip plus copies at the end 'just in case'.

 

[dfcatch]

All these folk going on about VA being "on the hook" if they transported you to SYD.... None of you have a clue in the world. Seriously.

JohnK has a Roundtrip ticket back to BNE. VA has been paid and has issued a ticket that includes BNE-SYD and SYD-BNE.

Now - IF JohnK was unable to board SYD-LAX, you could argue that he was then wanting to use his SYD-BNE sector out of order and on an earlier date.

But to argue that VA would have had to transport him back to BNE with the implication that it's on them is just illustrative of your stupidity.

There are several issues here.

But the most important is that I don't know how many folks have rocked up to QF and didn't have an ESTA..??? I've heard of dozens and dozens and dozens - and all have applied on the spot (either with or without agent assistance), got the ESTA on the spot, and it has been no drama.

(With the exception of one story - may have been on AFF - where the agent stuffed it).

I suspect the issue here, is that VA's system won't let them break the itinerary (and therefore can't do a checkin without the ESTA as the system wants to verify the LAX sector requirements).

I suspect that's what JohnK was up against - but given that the common occurrence of "no ESTA" seems to be routinely handled on QF without issue.... I think criticism of VA is totally warranted.

Ultimately - JohnK is of course responsible for not having the ESTA - but it's a bloody common occurrence, is not a major deal, and QF handles it flawlessly from all accounts.

Either way - VA could have handled it much better, system limitations or not.

I'll bite my tongue on the sanctimonious holier-than-thou potshots being made at JohnK by members who have been here for about 2.3 seconds.

For those who wish to disagree - please do so by PM, or contact me through direct channels to do so as this archaic platform doesn't ping folks if they're "tagged".

Or have my PA field the criticism.

Those of you who have been here for more than 5 mins know who that is.

 

[dfcatch]

Re: BNE-SYD-LAX-BNE VA Y US$266 on Orbitz [gone]

Sorry but he hasn't. He is still blaming VA for this. that is not accepting fault. And if it happens numerous times daily what happens in those situations? do they get an ESTA in time? or do they miss out on travelling. I am suspecting the latter. PPPPPP is a key here, Prior Planning Prevents Pi$$ Poor Performance..

What is with you lately?? No sleep??

JohnK has accepted responsibility for not having an ESTA.

That DOES NOT mean that VA doesn't bear responsibility as well.

(Try taking someone who hits your car to court and you'll learn very quickly about proportional responsibility).

To answer your question - most folks (99% that I've been made aware of) all make their flights as the ESTAs are sorted out on the spot.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

All these folk going on about VA being "on the hook" if they transported you to SYD.... None of you have a clue in the world. Seriously.

JohnK has a Roundtrip ticket back to BNE. VA has been paid and has issued a ticket that includes BNE-SYD and SYD-BNE.

Now - IF JohnK was unable to board SYD-LAX, you could argue that he was then wanting to use his SYD-BNE sector out of order and on an earlier date.

But to argue that VA would have had to transport him back to BNE with the implication that it's on them is just illustrative of your stupidity.

There are several issues here.

But the most important is that I don't know how many folks have rocked up to QF and didn't have an ESTA..??? I've heard of dozens and dozens and dozens - and all have applied on the spot (either with or without agent assistance), got the ESTA on the spot, and it has been no drama.

(With the exception of one story - may have been on AFF - where the agent stuffed it).

I suspect the issue here, is that VA's system won't let them break the itinerary (and therefore can't do a checkin without the ESTA as the system wants to verify the LAX sector requirements).

I suspect that's what JohnK was up against - but given that the common occurrence of "no ESTA" seems to be routinely handled on QF without issue.... I think criticism of VA is totally warranted.

Ultimately - JohnK is of course responsible for not having the ESTA - but it's a bloody common occurrence, is not a major deal, and QF handles it flawlessly from all accounts.

Either way - VA could have handled it much better, system limitations or not.

I'll bite my tongue on the sanctimonious holier-than-thou potshots being made at JohnK by members who have been here for about 2.3 seconds.

No wonder AFF is increasingly irrelevant.

For those who wish to flame me - please do so by PM, or contact me through direct channels to do so as this archaic platform doesn't ping folks if they're "tagged".

Or have my PA field the criticism.

Those of you who have been here for more than 5 mins know who that is.

you raise some good points, but complicated here by the lack of time available at check-in. QF used to recommend checking-in 45 mins prior for the domestic leg of an international itinerary - I guess this is one of the reasons why. At the 30 min mark you're not leaving enough time if things go wrong.

Regarding transport back to BNE. VA is damned if they do,damned if they don't. Let's say they make an exception and transport the passenger to SYD, but the ESTA fails to issue. The passenger then jumps up and down saying VA shouldn't have accepted them at the point of origin. They then demand VA transports them back to BNE.

In this case, the price of the return fare SYD-BNE on the day of the OP's travel would have exceeded the cost of the ticket. That's why airlines ask for indemnities. Whether or not that could have been completed in time is an issue worth exploring.

 

[nlagalle]

Re: BNE-SYD-LAX-BNE VA Y US$266 on Orbitz [gone]

What is with you lately?? No sleep??

JohnK has accepted responsibility for not having an ESTA.

Should we call up the posts where he squarely blames VA? accepting responsibility is that, it doesn't mean starting to blame the carrier using any straw that can be grasped.

That DOES NOT mean that VA doesn't bear responsibility as well.

No but given the timings what else could they do? I mean flight closes, and then he produces ESTA. do they have the authority to re-open the flight and check him in?

To answer your question - most folks (99% that I've been made aware of) all make their flights as the ESTAs are sorted out on the spot.

Most folk arrive at the airport usually an hour prior (especially the infrequent traveller) so have plenty of time to do the ESTA online then check in. Issue here is the short check in time which complicated matters further. Arriving 20 mins earlier and this post wouldn't exist (provided the ESTA was approved in time). As I said I know someone who had the exact same thing happen to them - however VA mucked up by insisting on doing the ESTA, then stuffed that up. So missed flights and had to leave the following day.

 

[dfcatch]

you raise some good points, but complicated here by the lack of time available at check-in. QF used to recommend checking-in 45 mins prior for the domestic leg of an international itinerary - I guess this is one of the reasons why. At the 30 min mark you're not leaving enough time if things go wrong.

Regarding transport back to BNE. VA is damned if they do,damned if they don't. Let's say they make an exception and transport the passenger to SYD, but the ESTA fails to issue. The passenger then jumps up and down saying VA shouldn't have accepted them at the point of origin. They then demand VA transports them back to BNE.

In this case, the price of the return fare SYD-BNE on the day of the OP's travel would have exceeded the cost of the ticket. That's why airlines ask for indemnities. Whether or not that could have been completed in time is an issue worth exploring.

Then he has the option to remain in BNE until the scheduled day of his SYD-BNE ticket.

Either way - VA has been paid for the return SYD-BNE sector.

NOW - if they let him board to LAX and he was denied entry by the CBP - then VA is on the hook (that's why proof of return ticket is required, amongst other reasons).

 

[RooFlyer]

<snip>But to argue that VA would have had to transport him back to BNE with the implication that it's on them is just illustrative of your stupidity.

There are several issues here.

But the most important is that I don't know how many folks have rocked up to QF and didn't have an ESTA..??? I've heard of dozens and dozens and dozens - and all have applied on the spot (either with or without agent assistance), got the ESTA on the spot, and it has been no drama.

<snip>I suspect that's what JohnK was up against - but given that the common occurrence of "no ESTA" seems to be routinely handled on QF without issue.... I think criticism of VA is totally warranted.

Ultimately - JohnK is of course responsible for not having the ESTA - but it's a bloody common occurrence, is not a major deal, and QF handles it flawlessly from all accounts.

<snip>For those who wish to flame me - please do so by PM, or contact me through direct channels to do so as this archaic platform doesn't ping folks if they're "tagged".

Or have my PA field the criticism.

Those of you who have been here for more than 5 mins know who that is.

Not flaming, so I assume its OK to follow up here.

Who is the 'your' as in 'your stupidity'?

Sure, people get ESTAs on the spot, no dramas. But do they then front up at check-in after its closed?

If its a common occurrence, and handled OK most of the time, doesn't that make you suspect that in the OP's case there is more to this than has been recounted? I observed above the OP's description of some comments here which are clearly inaccurate (the OP's description, that is).

I've been on AFF for a couple of years, but I don't know who your PA is, sorry. In other words, IDKWTA. Any clues?

 

[boomy]

yes it is the main issue.. had the OP had an ESTA before he arrived at the airport this thread would not exist. End of story. and you've finalised it with the last comment. 10 minutes late for checkin in the end.

No, this is not the issue. ESTA was just the reason the OP missed the flights. He could easily be stuck in traffic due to an unforeseen accident and arrive 10 minutes too late. The issue is the OP missing his flights and if VA did everything they could to help avoid that.

I'll throw another one here. the OP says VA "behaved like a LCC". how did the OP behave to the check in staff? was he calm and collected or did he get agitated and angry at them?

Don't know, I wasn't there, were you?
I can only say from knowing him that he is soft spoken person. Maybe he felt frustrated which would be normal but can't imagine he would act inappropriately.

so we should say the airlines should bend the rules sometimes, but only when it suits us?

I say airlines should practice common sense. The check-in agents are not robots, they have power to do things within their limits and also can request supervisor assistance. It seems, according to the OP, not everything possible was done.

Most people here aren't "defending the airline", but merely pointing out the blame here lays with the OP. this was an avoidable incident with a bit of due diligence before the trip began. I mean to top it off it was a mistake fare, so double check you have everything in place before you head off.

The OP agrees it's his fault not to complete ESTA on time but it's totally irrelevant because this is not the issue. The OP could have been late for many different reasons and the outcome would still have been the same because the airline chooses to blindly "follow the rules". The OP is blaming the airline for not doing enough to avoid missing the international connection.

It's extremely hypocritical by some members here to justify the airline blindly following the rules while they will rush to bend every rule in the book if given the chance.

So when should they? i mean you do it for one person, but not the next? whats the criteria? we complain when flights leave late because of pax. Imagine if you were on that and it was delayed by a late pax that caused you to miss your connecting flight... is it acceptable to them?

Some of the criteria should be status of the pax, the more loyal they are to the airline the more considerate the airline should be towards them. Also, the urgency of the connection should be a factor and the nature of the connection, Dom, Dom-Dom, Dom-Int...
It's not that complicated really, QF seem to do good job and I don't hear about pax missing their connection right left and centre due to delays by late check-ins.

Further more, in the OP's case the flight left 9 minutes early! Doesn't it make sense to you that status pax waiting to check-in for an important overseas connection and instead of trying to help him be on that flight the plane ends up leavening early?! Do you think this is correct practice by non-LCC airline, seriously??

 

[dfcatch]

Re: BNE-SYD-LAX-BNE VA Y US$266 on Orbitz [gone]

Should we call up the posts where he squarely blames VA? accepting responsibility is that, it doesn't mean starting to blame the carrier using any straw that can be grasped.



No but given the timings what else could they do? I mean flight closes, and then he produces ESTA. do they have the authority to re-open the flight and check him in?



Most folk arrive at the airport usually an hour prior (especially the infrequent traveller) so have plenty of time to do the ESTA online then check in. Issue here is the short check in time which complicated matters further. Arriving 20 mins earlier and this post wouldn't exist (provided the ESTA was approved in time). As I said I know someone who had the exact same thing happen to them - however VA mucked up by insisting on doing the ESTA, then stuffed that up. So missed flights and had to leave the following day.

Ahh yes - that was the muck-up incident I was referring to.

I knew you'd know who I meant.


Two things strike me here -

1/ The only issues with missing ESTAs causing problems seem to be VA.

2/ QF seems to manage it perfectly fine.


I suspect that you may be right - the VA system locks out.

QF seem to be able to be much more flexible/willing. Even on tight timeframes.

This isn't a class on delivering a verdict on who is guilty.

It's an issue of how airline frontline staff work to solve issues.

VA could have handled it better.

Whether the fault is human, system, or policy is questionable.

 

[JohnK]

you raise some good points, but complicated here by the lack of time available at check-in. QF used to recommend checking-in 45 mins prior for the domestic leg of an international itinerary - I guess this is one of the reasons why. At the 30 min mark you're not leaving enough time if things go wrong.

Virgin recommends 60 minutes. I was there ~67 minutes prior to domestic flight. Yes that was my fault as I was hoping to be there at 5:00am and this would not have happened.

But you cannot blame me for being denied boarding on a domestic sector. What was playing out in front of me yesterday was beyond comprehension. It made no sense at all. It was as if VA had hired a couple of children who refused to offer any assistance where an easy solution presented itself.

Honestly, if you can construe what I wrote (and re-quoted here) as finding the situation 'funny', then I am inclined to question your perception of what actually happened at check-in and to believe it less.

Same for this - a welcome to join Facebook etc ... becomes laughter at your misfortune?

I have no issue with you RooFlyer and apologies as that is not what it was meant to be. You and MEL_traveller have been debating the issue not scolding me. I find it laughable that someone would post my misfortune on the Facebook group and then criticise and attack me where I cannot defend myself. That is about as low as it gets. Sorry if you see it any other way.

By all means complain to VA customer relations about your experience; I'd be interested in their reply, if you'd care to share it.

I will write to customer relations. Costs me nothing. I may get satisfactory resolution and then again I may not. That is yet to be seen.

 

[dfcatch]

Not flaming, so I assume its OK to follow up here.

Who is the 'your' as in 'your stupidity'?

Sure, people get ESTAs on the spot, no dramas. But do they then front up at check-in after its closed?

If its a common occurrence, and handled OK most of the time, doesn't that make you suspect that in the OP's case there is more to this than has been recounted? I observed above the OP's description of some comments here which are clearly inaccurate (the OP's description, that is).

I've been on AFF for a couple of years, but I don't know who your PA is, sorry. In other words, IDKWTA. Any clues?

I'll be honest and admit that I didn't read 200 posts. I read enough in the first few pages on the mobile app (**** app that it is).

No I wasn't referring to you Rooflyer - I was referring to several comments in the first few pages made (mostly) by people I've never heard of, and that clearly have been here for less than 5 mins.

I'm familiar enough with you that you weren't included in that comment.

However - if you were arguing that VA would have to wear the expense for a return SYD-BNE then yes, you would be included in the ignorance reference as you'd be forgetting JohnK already holds a ticket for the return to BNE.

 

[nlagalle]

No, this is not the issue. ESTA was just the reason the OP missed the flights. He could easily be stuck in traffic due to an unforeseen accident and arrive 10 minutes too late. The issue is the OP missing his flights and if VA did everything they could to help avoid that.

yes it is.. the ESTA wasn't done prior so he missed his flights. You cannot disagree that if he had his ESTA he would have been on the flight. and if you get caught in traffic getting to the airport you'd still miss the flight too. Tell me what could VA do if the pax arrived with no ESTA???

Don't know, I wasn't there, were you?
I can only say from knowing him that he is soft spoken person. Maybe he felt frustrated which would be normal but can't imagine he would act inappropriately.

I know John too, we have had many drinks together. but the question should still be asked.

I say airlines should practice common sense. The check-in agents are not robots, they have power to do things within their limits and also can request supervisor assistance. It seems, according to the OP, not everything possible was done.

Do they? do they have the power/ authority to override a closed flight? what if they did and the flight left late and then other people missed connections because of it?

The OP agrees it's his fault not to complete ESTA on time but it's totally irrelevant because this is not the issue. The OP could have been late for many different reasons and the outcome would still have been the same because the airline chooses to blindly "follow the rules". The OP is blaming the airline for not doing enough to avoid missing the international connection.

The OP was at the airport on time without an ESTA. how you can keep saying this isn't an issue is beyond me. the ESTA is at the heart of the problem. Again, what else could they do? he failed to get the ESTA before check in closed. So he missed the flight. I still fail to see what else they could do?

It's extremely hypocritical by some members here to justify the airline blindly following the rules while they will rush to bend every rule in the book if given the chance.

pot kettle black.... it's also hypocritical to complain when people appear to get the rules bent for them, yet complain when they don't get the same treatment/



Some of the criteria should be status of the pax, the more loyal they are to the airline the more considerate the airline should be towards them. Also, the urgency of the connection should be a factor and the nature of the connection, Dom, Dom-Dom, Dom-Int...
It's not that complicated really, QF seem to do good job and I don't hear about pax missing their connection right left and centre due to delays by late check-ins.

Further more, in the OP's case the flight left 9 minutes early! Doesn't it make sense to you that status pax waiting to check-in for an important overseas connection and instead of trying to help him be on that flight the plane ends up leavening early?! Do you think this is correct practice by non-LCC airline, seriously??[/QUOTE]

 

[blackcat20]

Re: BNE-SYD-LAX-BNE VA Y US$266 on Orbitz [gone]

I have a good argument with VA. I was denied boarding for a domestic flight.

You weren't denied boarding. You failed to check in on time due to the lack of an ESTA.

 

[nlagalle]

But you cannot blame me for being denied boarding on a domestic sector. What was playing out in front of me yesterday was beyond comprehension. It made no sense at all. It was as if VA had hired a couple of children who refused to offer any assistance where an easy solution presented itself.

yes you can JohnK, you didn't hold n ESTA which you needed. the domestic leg is irrelevant to the argument as it's part of an international ticket.

I have no issue with you RooFlyer and apologies as that is not what it was meant to be. You and MEL_traveller have been debating the issue not scolding me. I find it laughable that someone would post my misfortune on the Facebook group and then criticise and attack me where I cannot defend myself. That is about as low as it gets. Sorry if you see it any other way.

Actually the post in question (you are more than welcome to join in) simply stated it pays to double check your travel documents prior to leaving. The poster did not attack you either. Yes a couple of others did post less than savoury comments, but you'll get that at a pub discussion too.

 

[dfcatch]

Re: BNE-SYD-LAX-BNE VA Y US$266 on Orbitz [gone]

You weren't denied boarding. You failed to check in on time due to the lack of an ESTA.

That's an oversimplification of the issue.


IF - a big IF - the VA system allowed them the split the sectors, they could have checked him in on time.

So it's not as simple as a missed-checkin-cutoff.

 

[pagingjoan]

Re: BNE-SYD-LAX-BNE VA Y US$266 on Orbitz [gone]

I've been known to have 3 hard copies of my major tickets etc with me when I travel -- on me, with travel companions, or in suitcase -- and another with family or friends at home!

Well, if we are confessing .....
Seems perfectly reasonable to me!

 

[MEL_Traveller]

But you cannot blame me for being denied boarding on a domestic sector.

That's right - if one is to accept it was a domestic sector or a required flight sector. Other than for the purpose of catching the flight to LAX, you had no reason to be in SYD and VA had no obligation to put you there. Had the 0630 been cancelled for whatever reason, VA would have put you on the non-stop BNE-LAX and you couldn't have claimed compensation for missing the BNE-SYD leg.

In that sense, your 'destination' could be considered LAX, not SYD. Hence ESTA required at check-in (as per 'refusal of carriage').

For some reason I had you arriving at check-in 30 minutes later than you actually did (I thought you got there just before 6 rather than 5.23). Maybe VA could have gone the extra mile to help you - if it was an option.

Were VA contractually obliged to do so? I don't know. I think a lot could turn on how they see the BNE-SYD sector (ie stand alone or part of the complete international itinerary).

Worth writing a letter to get their side of it.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

However - if you were arguing that VA would have to wear the expense for a return SYD-BNE then yes, you would be included in the ignorance reference as you'd be forgetting JohnK already holds a ticket for the return to BNE.

i was arguing that. While normally I'd agree with you, this case is complicated by the fare paid. The total ticket price would have been less than the BNE-SYD-BNE sectors. In this case they may have been a real additional cost to VA to bring the passenger home on the same day.