TG: BKK-ARN, business class, rt $1068 USD - get in quick!

[MEL_Traveller]

The OP paid for the ticket, so that's it, that's how you buy a ticket. And it the OP got a e-ticket, then what more could the insurance company want?

For what it is worth, you could pay $5000, get the e ticket, then TG decide not to fly you, because the route is canned, and they can't be bothered re-routing you.

Claim what? If Thai decides not to fly, Thai is gonna give a full refund, regardless if you have an e-mail confirmation or not, or whatever document you have, that's doesn't even matter.

So what you would be claiming in the event TG canceled the ticket would be any reasonable expenses incurred as a result of the ticket [not being honoured]. The positioning flight to/from Bangkok from Australia would probably be a bit out of scope, but at the European end things such as additional flights, hotels or tours which were booked in reliance of this ticket would all be fair game.

There's a difference between an airline cancelling a flight (in which case they will usually re-route you) and an airline cancelling the ticket. The latter would be as if no contract ever existed. Most insurances require you to have a valid ticket. One that is cancelled no longer fits that bill (airlines cancelling tickets is extremely rare, fraud comes to mind, or contravening FF programs rules are a couple of examples that come to mind).

 

[DC3]

After a filling and delicious Christmas Day meal, some posts are getting a bit War-and-Peacey, and it’s getting a bit too much for me, tonight.

I may remember to look in again tomorrow.

 

[Chicken]

So what you would be claiming in the event TG canceled the ticket would be any reasonable expenses incurred as a result of the ticket [not being honoured].

Seems like none, actually.

I just checked Bankwest Platinum MasterCard + AmEx Reserve + RACV

Bankwest and AmEx specify the events covered, and they only cover delays due to weather, industrial actions, mechanical break downs, etc.

With RACV (because their T&C do cover a lot of things, and underwritten by a Japanese, not European / US re/insurer, and covered my 2 trips to North Korea without charging crazy), they specifically exclude cancellations by transport operator.

So, that means, if you buy any plane ticket, you are actually self insured, because the policies I found do not cover cancellation by a airline, including insolvency.

There's a difference between an airline cancelling a flight (in which case they will usually re-route you) and an airline cancelling the ticket.

You are correct, meaning, if you buy a plane ticket, you are self insured regardless of what happens with the airline. Lesson number one here, is always pay with a credit card, not cash, because you are self insured.

Back to the specific case, if you buy ultra cheap fare, then you need to decide, if you are willing to take the risk of not flying, whether you are buying ultra cheap from TG, or buying from, like, air berlin.

However, your suggestion of bugging the airline, would not achieve anything, because, if you poke the airline enough, that the ultra cheap fare issue keeps being resurrected by you, that they decide to cancel your ticket, you would not be able to claim from your travel insurer, even if you have a letter from TG saying your ticket was OK.

So, back to my question: what is the outcome you are trying to achieve, by bugging the airline?

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Seems like none, actually.

I just checked Bankwest Platinum MasterCard + AmEx Reserve + RACV

Bankwest and AmEx specify the events covered, and they only cover delays due to weather, industrial actions, mechanical break downs, etc.

With RACV (because their T&C do cover a lot of things, and underwritten by a Japanese, not European / US re/insurer, and covered my 2 trips to North Korea without charging crazy), they specifically exclude cancellations by transport operator.

So, that means, if you buy any plane ticket, you are actually self insured, because the policies I found do not cover cancellation by a airline, including insolvency.

You are correct, meaning, if you buy a plane ticket, you are self insured regardless of what happens with the airline. Lesson number one here, is always pay with a credit card, not cash, because you are self insured.

In this scenario, you would not be claiming against your insurance. Rather, you would claim directly against Thai Airways. You'd bring a civil claim for the reasonable losses incurred in reliance of the ticket which they initially confirmed but subsequently canceled.

Having the airline confirm that the ticket will be honoured goes against a later claim by the airline that the ticket was a mistake, and that they should be entitled to void the contract (and that the passenger is entitled to nothing as they should have known it was an error).

Back to the specific case, if you buy ultra cheap fare, then you need to decide, if you are willing to take the risk of not flying, whether you are buying ultra cheap from TG, or buying from, like, air berlin.

However, your suggestion of bugging the airline, would not achieve anything, because, if you poke the airline enough, that the ultra cheap fare issue keeps being resurrected by you, that they decide to cancel your ticket, you would not be able to claim from your travel insurer, even if you have a letter from TG saying your ticket was OK.

The difference between purchasing a ticket from Air Berlin and Thai is that Air Berlin went bankrupt. Nothing to see here. No money to claim.

TG is very much a going concern and continues to trade. Hence the ability to recover losses.

So, back to my question: what is the outcome you are trying to achieve, by bugging the airline?

Peace of mind. It shouldn't be a case of 'bugging', just a one off request to confirm the ticket.

 

[Chicken]

In this scenario, you would not be claiming against your insurance. Rather, you would claim directly against Thai Airways.

From contract of carriage

15.1.1(d) Except where other specific provision is made in these Conditions of Carriage, we shall be liable to you only for recoverable compensatory damages for proven losses and, to the extent permitted by applicable law, you agree that we shall not be liable for indirect, consequential, or any other form of non-compensatory damages.

So your hotels and tours and etc are all consequential, hence excluded from this contract.

You'd bring a civil claim for the reasonable losses incurred in reliance of the ticket which they initially confirmed but subsequently canceled.

Via which method? tribunals like NCAT / VCAT? Small claim state based? Which state do you live in? Which state is Thai registered in?

Are you really going to go to the court, file a claim, then go to hearing, then mediation, and if you can't reach an agreement, you are going to explain and blah blah? How many days are you going take off for these?

To save what? $1000?

And if you live in a different state, are you going to travel to the state where Thai is registered in, to pay the $40 court fee? Then fly in again for the hearing? How much are you going to spend on plane tickets to fly to the court?

Having the airline confirm that the ticket will be honoured goes against a later claim by the airline that the ticket was a mistake, and that they should be entitled to void the contract (and that the passenger is entitled to nothing as they should have known it was an error).

So you could fly Tiger air to a different state, to pay $50 hearing fee for that state, then fly Tiger a few months later for the hearing again?

Peace of mind.

For? Peach of mind so you have an e-mail which you could fly to a different state, to file for a VCAT hearing? Then to fly again for the tribunal hearing? so you could present that e-mail to the member of the tribunal?

 

[MEL_Traveller]

From contract of carriage

15.1.1(d) Except where other specific provision is made in these Conditions of Carriage, we shall be liable to you only for recoverable compensatory damages for proven losses and, to the extent permitted by applicable law, you agree that we shall not be liable for indirect, consequential, or any other form of non-compensatory damages.

So your hotels and tours and etc are all consequential, hence excluded from this contract.

As the airline has canceled your ticket there's no carriage, so the conditions of carriage won't apply. As the passenger you'd be claiming for breach of contract (or using another consumer law if applicable).

Are you really going to go to the court, file a claim, then go to hearing, then mediation, and if you can't reach an agreement, you are going to explain and blah blah?

Lots of people do. That's why the forums you mention exist.

 

[Chicken]

As the airline has canceled your ticket there's no carriage, so the conditions of carriage won't apply. As the passenger you'd be claiming for breach of contract (or using another consumer law if applicable).

Are you sure it is by breach? They took you money, never carried out the work, gave you the money back, then terminated.

are you sure it is not termination by something else?

You may want to read up on that.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

They took you money, never carried out the work, gave you the money back, then terminated.

= case for breach of contract.

 

[Chicken]

= case for breach of contract.

A breach is when a party cannot do something under a contract. For example, Thai needed emergency landing due to mechanical problem, landed on Christmas Island; but then they could not find a small enough airbus to land on Christmas Island, so they just left you sitting on the island staring into the ocean. This is when the contract is happening, there is performance already.

If the airline cancels your ticket and gives you your money back, then they have repudiated, and you would in practice, terminate the contract by repudiation.

However, regardless of breach or termination, you have a duty to mitigate the damages.

So, if the ticket of the OP is cancelled, OP cannot just sit at home, cry, and sue TG to pay back all the hotels and tours for the next 2 weeks in Europe. OP needs to minimise the losses, by either booking with another airline, and sue for the difference in plane ticket prices; or cancel all tours and hotels for the 2 weeks in Europe, recover those costs from the hotels and tours, then sue TG for the differences. Also, OP needs to take the option which causes the least loss, which likely translates into booking with another airline (assuming all the tours are prepaid and hotels are cheapest prepaid no refund rates). The end result would probably be only AUD $1000 to $2000 difference.

And you are going to take legal action for $1000? If you lose on this USD$1000 bet?

I have highlighted words with specific meanings, you may want to read up on those words, instead of keep digging this hole, which in reality, is pointless, unless you are the sort who would be prepared to spend a few thousand dollars, taking days off, to fly interstate, in order to go to a xCAT hearing, to sue a business for $1000.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

It seems we are not going to achieve consensus on the technicalities, chicken.

It looks like TG has firmed its decision to honour travel, although potentially with restrictions to prohibit changes. Still a reasonable fare.

 

[Chicken]

Still a reasonable fare.

I don't even know how people could buy these so quickly, I always end up being the last person to know. I tried the Virgin Atlantic under $4000 to LHR before, same thing, Flight Center said sold out by the time I found out about the fare.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Yikes. Looks like TG is cancelling these fares.

 

[The man with no name]

Yikes. Looks like TG is cancelling these fares.

Quite possibly because people are calling/emailing the airline thereby causing it to be escalated to higher levels of management.

Don't call, don't email

 

[jase05]

Yikes. Looks like TG is cancelling these fares.

Not surprised at all TBH.
Atleast they caught on to it early enough to give people plenty of notice. I’d suspect everyone affected will get an email very shortly by the sounds of it.

 

[jase05]

Quite possibly because people are calling/emailing the airline thereby causing it to be escalated to higher levels of management.

Don't call, don't email

Too late, they are all being cancelled unfortunately for some

 

[Danger]

Chicken, I think you've largely provided some good advice in this thread.

Claim what? If Thai decides not to fly, Thai is gonna give a full refund, regardless if you have an e-mail confirmation or not, or whatever document you have, that's doesn't even matter.

So what you would be claiming in the event TG canceled the ticket would be any reasonable expenses incurred as a result of the ticket [not being honoured]. The positioning flight to/from Bangkok from Australia would probably be a bit out of scope, but at the European end things such as additional flights, hotels or tours which were booked in reliance of this ticket would all be fair game.

I have previously sued one of the 10 biggest airlines in the world over an alleged mistake fare. I sued for the cost of a replacement ticket. The dollar figure was easy because the airline stated what it believed the 'true' cost should have been which was quite a bit higher than what I paid. The airline had refunded the amount I paid so I sued for the difference.

Via which method? tribunals like NCAT / VCAT? Small claim state based? Which state do you live in? Which state is Thai registered in?

Are you really going to go to the court, file a claim, then go to hearing, then mediation, and if you can't reach an agreement, you are going to explain and blah blah? How many days are you going take off for these?

To save what? $1000?

And if you live in a different state, are you going to travel to the state where Thai is registered in, to pay the $40 court fee? Then fly in again for the hearing? How much are you going to spend on plane tickets to fly to the court?

So you could fly Tiger air to a different state, to pay $50 hearing fee for that state, then fly Tiger a few months later for the hearing again?

For? Peach of mind so you have an e-mail which you could fly to a different state, to file for a VCAT hearing? Then to fly again for the tribunal hearing? so you could present that e-mail to the member of the tribunal?

I sued in the small claims court in the Australian state in which I lived which the airline in question did not have an office in. When it came to the court hearing, the airline sent representatives to my state's court.

As the airline has canceled your ticket there's no carriage, so the conditions of carriage won't apply. As the passenger you'd be claiming for breach of contract (or using another consumer law if applicable).

Lots of people do. That's why the forums you mention exist.

From memory, that's what I did (i.e. sued for breach of contract).

A breach is when a party cannot do something under a contract. For example, Thai needed emergency landing due to mechanical problem, landed on Christmas Island; but then they could not find a small enough airbus to land on Christmas Island, so they just left you sitting on the island staring into the ocean. This is when the contract is happening, there is performance already.

If the airline cancels your ticket and gives you your money back, then they have repudiated, and you would in practice, terminate the contract by repudiation.

However, regardless of breach or termination, you have a duty to mitigate the damages.

In my case, the word "repudiate" was never mentioned at trial. Maybe I got lucky.

So, if the ticket of the OP is cancelled, OP cannot just sit at home, cry, and sue TG to pay back all the hotels and tours for the next 2 weeks in Europe. OP needs to minimise the losses, by either booking with another airline, and sue for the difference in plane ticket prices; or cancel all tours and hotels for the 2 weeks in Europe, recover those costs from the hotels and tours, then sue TG for the differences. Also, OP needs to take the option which causes the least loss, which likely translates into booking with another airline (assuming all the tours are prepaid and hotels are cheapest prepaid no refund rates). The end result would probably be only AUD $1000 to $2000 difference.

And you are going to take legal action for $1000? If you lose on this USD$1000 bet?

I have highlighted words with specific meanings, you may want to read up on those words, instead of keep digging this hole, which in reality, is pointless, unless you are the sort who would be prepared to spend a few thousand dollars, taking days off, to fly interstate, in order to go to a xCAT hearing, to sue a business for $1000.

The difference in the fare cost I sued for was more than $2000. I also didn't need to provide evidence of a replacement ticket (indeed, I didn't have one). I didn't have to pay costs associated with the airline's representatives travelling form interstate.

Despite the airline being represented (pre-hearing; only airline representatives attended in court) by one of the five largest law firms in the world, I won my case and the airline paid in full.

 

[DC3]

Quite possibly because people are calling/emailing the airline thereby causing it to be escalated to higher levels of management.

Don't call, don't email

Never, ever call.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Never, ever call.

And yet, in the Swiss cases the reason the claims were denied - for the vast majority - was because they *didn’t* call the airline.

So somewhere there is a balance? (but certainly not while the fare is active, or in the immediate aftermath while it’s not clear what action the airline will take)

I think if the OP gets the email from Thai here (s)he should not accept the cancellation, but rather respond that they were advised on xx date that their ticket was going to be honoured.

 

[DC3]

And yet, in the Swiss cases the reason the claims were denied - for the vast majority - was because they *didn’t* call the airline ...

Well, in elaboration, I meant that I feel that contacting the airline for “no good reason” is generally a bad idea (drawing attention to what may be a mistake).

The fare is advertised and I book it. The traveller should not need to determine if the fare is a mistake or just a bargain.

 

[The man with no name]

Well, in elaboration, I meant that I feel that contacting the airline for “no good reason” is generally a bad idea (drawing attention to what may be a mistake).

The fare is advertised and I book it. The traveller should not need to determine if the fare is a mistake or just a bargain.

Agree. If you're somebody that is put off by a period of uncertainty don't book the flight. Calling / emailing the airline is alway counterproductive and is not just hurting your own prospects but those of everyone else that booked the fare