TG: BKK-ARN, business class, rt $1068 USD - get in quick!

[Danger]

Please don't use the m or the e words.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I didnt go to the details, i gave them the PNR and asked them to re-confirm the booking and they said it's valid only.

I see. While that is a good start, that’s not really what you were after (although at least here you have a pretty good indication from what’s happening over on the thread on FT).

The agent really needs to take a closer look - ie at the fare paid - and then give you the confirmation.

I suggested some wording above. If you are still needing peace of mind at any stage you could use that wording in an email to TG in thailand.

 

[annielee]

Just send an email to them clarifying the fare details, hopefully that wont 'trigger' them to cancel the ticket !

I see. While that is a good start, that’s not really what you were after (although at least here you have a pretty good indication from what’s happening over on the thread on FT).

The agent really needs to take a closer look - ie at the fare paid - and then give you the confirmation.

I suggested some wording above. If you are still needing peace of mind at any stage you could use that wording in an email to TG in thailand.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Just send an email to them clarifying the fare details, hopefully that wont 'trigger' them to cancel the ticket !

If it does, better for them to do it now than some time down the track.

 

[Oxy]

I don't understand why people think this classifies as an error fare. There have been many asia-eu J fares for ~$2k in the past, or less from certain departure points. Also Scandinavia is known for its competitive pricing the other way, so although it's a hot price and better than a normal sale, I think it would be REALLY surprising if TG did an about face.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I don't understand why people think this classifies as an error fare. There have been many asia-eu J fares for ~$2k in the past, or less from certain departure points. Also Scandinavia is known for its competitive pricing the other way, so although it's a hot price and better than a normal sale, I think it would be REALLY surprising if TG did an about face.

Simply because TG charges a premium on this route - in both directions. While the likes of Qatar offer really cheap J class fares ex Asia, and places like OSL, the same isn't said for the direct TG flight. While not out of the ball park compared to other carriers, it is highly unusual for TG. They are also successful with hefty pricing for their premium economy on this route (which is business class seating with a modified meal service).

 

[The man with no name]

Sorry

Yes. It is true that airlines can cancel these tickets at any time. Each case is different.

Once an airline knows about the tickets, that's usually the time we get an idea of whether they're going to honour them or not. Here TG clearly knows about the tickets, but they have decided not to cancel them. Rather, they are trying to manage it through voluntary cancellation.

Now, it is possible they could change their mind later, but that seems unlikely. Airlines either cancel once they know, or they allow people to fly. Changing course it not usual.

Where people can get caught out is if the airline doesn't know about the mistake, and people are keeping quiet in the hope tickets go under the radar. That leaves them open to cancellation once the airline finds out. But that's not the case here.

So I think here you are now getting some degree of certainty. Calling the airline, or even emailing the Sydney office, will get you that confirmation.

Sorry but I have to disagree with the advise given here. Generally speaking its a terrible idea to call or email an airline about a fare like this one and it is the exact reason why some people on FT are becoming reluctant to share when amazing deal come up.

In my view it is entirely selfish to potentially kill the trick/deal that is not yours to kill. If you don't have the stomach to wait and see what the airline will do perhaps it's not a game you should play.

Granted it appears that TG is aware of the fare in this case and you've pointed that out but telling newbies and however many lurkers are reading this to call email the airlines when fares of this type come up is not what they should do until they are CERTAIN the airline has publicly acknowledged the fare.

Furthermore it would be appreciated if the term error or mistake is used (it has been earlier in this thread) in threads about these types of fares as it's not helpful down the track if there's a dispute with the airlline about the type of fare sold.

I've been fortunate enough to grab some incredible "sale" fares in the past and may have missed out if the airline found out earlier.

 

[annielee]

Hope im not the source of this misunderstanding of the recent posts, of course its not advisable to call the airline when the deal is still active, but in this case, the deal has been pulled by TG, hence calling/emailing them to confirm the validity of the ticket is a norm to ensure that there wont be any surprises when boarding or before purchasing any flight connections or hotels booking (unless im wrong again)

The previous posts with e/m couldn't be edited/deleted anymore, unless there's a way you can share on how to remove the wordings in the post.

 

[Rangalad]

Too narrow and insufficient length to sleep comfortably (much like their A380 biz). But I’m a tall fella with broad shoulders so everyone’s different.

I hear ya bro......

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Hope im not the source of this misunderstanding of the recent posts, of course its not advisable to call the airline when the deal is still active, but in this case, the deal has been pulled by TG, hence calling/emailing them to confirm the validity of the ticket is a norm to ensure that there wont be any surprises when boarding or before purchasing any flight connections or hotels booking (unless im wrong again)

The previous posts with e/m couldn't be edited/deleted anymore, unless there's a way you can share on how to remove the wordings in the post.

Not only has the fare been withdrawn, but TG is aware of the fare and is taking action (in this case, offering to waive the $100 change fee). All the conditions listed by the man with no name - which are valid and should be followed - have been satisfied. And the advice given in this thread was carefully considered in context.

There has to come some point in time when those who have secured the fare are entitled to make additional - sometimes non-refundable - plans.

Agree that calling fares 'errors' or 'mistakes' is generally frowned upon... but that has to also be considered in context. If the airline has discovered the fare but has not yet determined the action it will take, calling it an error or mistake can work against the consumer. Once the fare is being honoured, it becomes a moot point.

 

[The man with no name]

Let’s face it, most if not all of the deals posted here were found on FT and yes the “E” and. “M” word will definitely annoy some posters while a deal is active or awaiting a decision from the airline. Just don’t do it.

The famous CX “Sale” fair from New Year’s Day could have been shut down very quickly had someone called the airline early on. As it turns out hundreds, if not thousands of folks got to fly business or first class for the price of economy. I was fortunate to pick up a few of these (and others) and am forever grateful to those that post them. Let’s not kill the golden goose.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

And no one did call CX for the mistake fares ex viêt nam. At least the we know of.

The whole ‘let’s not call it a mistake’ thing can be a bit ridiculous at times. $900 first class return from asia to the USA was clearly and obviously a mistake. No amount of calling it otherwise will sway a court that a passenger really, truly, honestly, believed it was a legitimate fare. It makes the passenger claiming it was genuine look silly.

Arguably the whole mistake/not mistake really only matters if the fare is borderline.

 

[The man with no name]

Many of the posts on FT are started by or are aimed at an American audience. Who of us here really understands the ins and outs of the American legal system? This after all is the legal system which allows people to take their pets on planes under the often dubious claim that they are "Emotional Support Animals"

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Many of the posts on FT are started by or are aimed at an American audience. Who of us here really understands the ins and outs of the American legal system? This after all is the legal system which allows people to take their pets on planes under the often dubious claim that they are "Emotional Support Animals"

There are common elements to the doctrine of mistake in the various jurisdictions (USA, Canada, Australia, UK), as you would expect. The CTA's (Canada) decisions around mistake fares were fairly straight forward, and there was plenty of discussion on whether those buying these fares 'knew, or ought to have known' the fare was a mistake (and if such, the contract could be voided).

This is where the 'ban' on calling these fares 'mistakes' came from. But the arguments put forward by those claiming they 'didn't know' were fairly tenuous. Very hard to say, for example, that $900 first class return on Cathay is a reasonable fare that you'd expect to see on a frequent basis

 

[Chicken]

And the advice given in this thread was carefully considered in context.

I do not agree, and I disagree with your suggestions to the OP.

Let me construct the scenario behind the scene.

First let's build the hierarchy of these people:

Ann = annielee the OP

01 = customer service at TG
02 = customer service at TG
03 = customer service at TG
11 = manager for 01 02 03
Commercial team = self explain you know that this means
Control = person responsible for the pricing control, or from the controls team
GM = general manager

Ann : is my tix valid?
01 answers : yes
01 thinks: that was a strange call / e-mail, everything looks OK, don't know why Ann called.

Ann : is my tix valid?
02 answers : yes
02 yells out to the team : I just took that easy phone call / e-mail, na nan nan na na! (to those who never worked at a contact centre, your KPI is measured primarily by how many calls / e-mail you took, hence people always fight for the easy e-mail, but try not to touch the difficult e-mail. Same idea with phone calls)

Ann : is my tix valid?
03 answers : yes

03 asks 02 : Did you take a call / e-mail like this before?
02 answers : yes
03 asks 02 : is the name Ann?
02 answers : yes
01 overhead : I got a call / e-mail like this too yesterday.

03 looks at the ticket, $1000.

03 says to team: this ticket is cheap, like not cheap cheap, but unusual, you people think?

01: It got ticket-ed, who cares? There are still 50 people in the call queue.
02: I think it's a little cheap.
03 asks 11 : Boss, what do you think?
11: yeah, cheap. What do you think? Should we ask?
01 and 02 roll eyes
03: yeah, you roll eyes, but this customer asked 3 times. If we don't flag this, and the ticket turns out to be wrong, we are gonna get our butts kicked.

11 ask commercial

Commercial thinks : cough, we made a mistake, but it's not too bad, we could balance it out with other fare buckets.

Commercial replies 11 : It's OK, it's cheap, but we aren't losing too much money, so just leave it, we will wear it, balance it somewhere else, not worth effort from your team having to kill the tickets and notify customers and rebook and all that shats.

11: Thanks bro!

However, according to Met Traveller's advice, people kept calling and asking.

01 and 02 and 03 keep getting these enquiries, they get flagged. Commercial team is getting asked.

Talks start to happen in the office.

Controls say to Commerical : I heard something about this strange ticket, do you know anything about this?
Commercial replies : yes, but the fare is OK, and we could cover it, and it does more damage if we start killing the tickets
Commercial thinks to oneself :OMG, poo gonna hit the fan.
Controls : yeah, maybe no violation to pricing control, maybe small, but people are calling the contact centre, so the info is out there, we need to see what we need to do.

Control to GM : What do you think? It costs a lot of money and goodwill of we kill the tickets:
GM: yes, but it's a violation of the pricing control, and if the news is out that we honor mistake fares, we would lose revenue, and people think they could get away. It's OK if a few customers got it, but now that it is out, I don't want to create a bad habit, I worry about this.
Control : yeah, I can see you point, but it's so painful to kill tickets.
GM : How many tickets have you been able to kill using that $100 offer?
Control : not much, because people are apparently telling each other on the internet, that we would not kill the tickets, so everyone is holding out.
GM : that's cough, if no one is willing to that that $100 offer. I think we may have to kill some.

This is the type of conversations I foreseen in a large multinational organisation.

You can see how, in a large organisation, everyone is trying not to rock the boat, because everything has too many implications:
- customer service has to clean up the mess, and it is them who have to do the most work, and deal with customer abuse. There is 0 incentive for them to kill your ticket.
- commercial team made a mistake with the price, they would try to fix it by working the rest of the year to meet their target, and not raise any alarm. If they have and needed to report to controls, they would dress it up as a small mistake, and tell controls it's OK, it won't happen again, and 99% of the other prices are correct.
- controls just want to close the gap, so it won't be violated again, they don't care the rest if you could fix the problem yourself, and they don't care about customer service or net promoter score BS;
- GM only cares if this is a big problem; don't tell me if it's a small problem; tell me if it's big, so I know what to say if I'm ever asked during board meeting.

However, MEL Traveller's suggestion has gone against everyone who is trying not to rock the boat, by constantly poking a stick at it, until everyone needs to do something, and hence, the tickets are killed.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Chicken - the context here is that 'control' is already aware of the fare and is offering to waive the cancellation fees for people to cancel. The decision to waive cancellation fees, en masse, isn't made by reservations agents.

What you say is correct, but in this particular case the sequencing is out.

We've got to the stage where the OP now wants to make plans, and probably wants to ensure any non-refundable component will be covered. While the airline can still cancel, armed with an email the recovery of any associated costs is far easier.

It is possible the airline could cancel these tickets but *somehow*, so the argument goes, the OP's ticket could slip through the net because they didn't call or email. That's fine if the OP is a solo traveler doing a weekend away and loses nothing if they get to the airport to find the ticket canceled. But that's not the case here.

If the fare was still active, the real danger of people calling is that the reservations agents will escalate to their managers, and then to revenue and commercial departments, as per your scenario. Which is why the advice is to never call on mistake fares. But that implies the fare is active, or the airline doesn't know about them. (And in this context 'the airline' means senior management, not reservations.)

 

[DC3]

Never call over a “mistake” fare, or offer, or anything else, including the Pommery.

Edit: Killing it off for others, if not for yourself

 

[Chicken]

Chicken - the context here is that 'control' is already aware of the fare and is offering to waive the cancellation fees for people to cancel. The decision to waive cancellation fees, en masse, isn't made by reservations agents.

So you can see that, they are trying to so call fix the problem, while not making it too big a 'thing'.

We've got to the stage where the OP now wants to make plans, and probably wants to ensure any non-refundable component will be covered. While the airline can still cancel, armed with an email the recovery of any associated costs is far easier.

Associated costs? Can you?

From their carriage contract

10.2.1.1 if no portion of the Ticket has been used, an amount equal to the fare paid;

Let's say, TG doesn't want to fly OP anymore, TG gives full refund, plus extra $100 to keep OP's mouth shut. Then what?

this is why you need travel insurance.

It is possible the airline could cancel these tickets but *somehow*, so the argument goes, the OP's ticket could slip through the net because they didn't call or email. That's fine if the OP is a solo traveler doing a weekend away and loses nothing if they get to the airport to find the ticket canceled. But that's not the case here.

If you can't afford the uncertainty, then you don't buy it.

If you NEED a J seat flying across the ocean, do you gamble on winning an upgrade bidding war from Y? No.

If you need to fly somewhere on Christmas eve, do you gamble on not buying your ticket early, and see if there would be a cheap fare later on? No.

Which is why the advice is to never call on mistake fares. But that implies the fare is active, or the airline doesn't know about them. (And in this context 'the airline' means senior management, not reservations.

And this is the bit you miss in my scenario.

Someone somewhere made a decisison, that the problem is small, hence maybe just leave it; but if you keep poking at it, then the 'talk' would start to happen, and make the problem prominent, that it went from everyone wants to leave it and let it go, to having to actually do something about it.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Associated costs? Can you?

From their carriage contract

10.2.1.1 if no portion of the Ticket has been used, an amount equal to the fare paid;

Let's say, TG doesn't want to fly OP anymore, TG gives full refund, plus extra $100 to keep OP's mouth shut. Then what?

this is why you need travel insurance.

I don't know whether travel insurance would cover the scenario of a mistake fare. The contract has been voided as if it never existed. I don't think there's anything for the insurance to attach to?

Having confirmation from the airline that they are aware of the fare and have decided to honour it, then yes, you can take them to small claims.

Someone somewhere made a decisison, that the problem is small, hence maybe just leave it; but if you keep poking at it, then the 'talk' would start to happen, and make the problem prominent, that it went from everyone wants to leave it and let it go, to having to actually do something about it.

Do we know they have made the decision the problem is 'small'? That's not something that has come up in discussion of the various deals going back over many years. An airline either decides to cancel, or they don't. And if they don't cancel, offering to waive cancellation fees is pretty standard. Following CTA and DOT decisions airlines know they can cancel, and they do cancel. Flip-flopping half way through hasn't come up (touch wood )

With the Cathay fares folk are calling every day to change their tickets. Poking the bear 100 times over by insisting on historical pricing, pushing dates to the limit, calling out the airline on 'A' class inventory and married segments, circumventing the call centre by getting tickets reissued in the Hong Kong lounge, and the like... not happy that the airline has honoured the tickets, but wanting to enforce the contract to the letter. Cathay is still not cancelling.

 

[Chicken]

I don't know whether travel insurance would cover the scenario of a mistake fare. The contract has been voided as if it never existed. I don't think there's anything for the insurance to attach to?

The OP paid for the ticket, so that's it, that's how you buy a ticket. And it the OP got a e-ticket, then what more could the insurance company want?

For what it is worth, you could pay $5000, get the e ticket, then TG decide not to fly you, because the route is canned, and they can't be bothered re-routing you.

Having confirmation from the airline that they are aware of the fare and have decided to honour it, then yes, you can take them to small claims.

Claim what? If Thai decides not to fly, Thai is gonna give a full refund, regardless if you have an e-mail confirmation or not, or whatever document you have, that's doesn't even matter.

Do we know they have made the decision the problem is 'small'? That's not something that has come up in discussion of the various deals going back over many years. An airline either decides to cancel, or they don't. And if they don't cancel, offering to waive cancellation fees is pretty standard. Following CTA and DOT decisions airlines know they can cancel, and they do cancel. Flip-flopping half way through hasn't come up (touch wood )

Exactly my point. In a large multinational, there are too many people involved, everyone is trying to minimise work, and weigh up the benefit of remediation or not. People often look at the cost of recovery, and if possible, decide to just let it slide.

However, if you keep calling, sending e-mail, or asking them to confirm your ticket in writing, then you are going to make people stop and think, if they need to do something about it, because you just made it, from, just 'let it slide', no body wants to know about it, to a noisy issue, where people go 'what do we need to do, what are the implications, what do we need to do to potential cover our butts'. And this is where all hell break loose.

To further drill into your question, of "Do we know they have made the decision the problem is 'small'?". If the problem is big, people would start remediation process, which would be, killing OP's ticket.

If the problem is not big, then people would try to 'let it slide', and in case you don't know what that means, it means, you don't question it, you don't seek an answer, you don't mention it again, you let it disappear into history, never to be mentioned again, and never to be seen again.

Hence, there is no answer. If you want an answer, then you are making it noisy again.

It's like those people, who just keep asking questions by replying an e-mail, when everyone else is clearly trying to let that e-mail die, but some people just can't help themselves.

With the Cathay fares folk are calling every day to change their tickets. Poking the bear 100 times over by insisting on historical pricing, pushing dates to the limit, calling out the airline on 'A' class inventory and married segments, circumventing the call centre by getting tickets reissued in the Hong Kong lounge, and the like... not happy that the airline has honoured the tickets, but wanting to enforce the contract to the letter. Cathay is still not cancelling.

So they have made a decision for that specific event. Are you saying that, it's now OK to start poking at TG this time?

That's like saying, I poked a tiger at Taronga Zoo and it ignored me, just lay there to sleep. I'm gonna start poking those at Western Plain Zoo, and see what happens.