State border closures illegal under the highest law in the country?

[bigbadbyrnes]

Everything is arguable in law, doubly so in constitutional law. This is a matter for the high court.

But here's my opening argument;

Section 92 of the highest law in the country sets out "On the imposition of uniform duties of customs, trade, commerce, and intercourse among the States, whether by means of internal carriage or ocean navigation, shall be absolutely free. "

Per Cole vs Whitfield 1988 "The notions of absolutely free trade and commerce and absolutely free intercourse are quite distinct". Sec92 clearly sets out the law for interstate trade, but also 'intercourse'.

And on the matter of what intercourse means, per Gratwick v Johnson 1945 it's the ability "to pass to and fro among the States without burden, hindrance or restriction".

Border closures, (and arguably although less certainly isolation requirements), are therefore inconsistent with the highest law in the country and should be set aside.

No one is talking about it, any legal eagles here explain? There's no room on the news for this at the moment, but if people start to fed up with the restrictions, it's worth getting them tested in the high court.

edit:

I think this analysis will answer all your questions: States are shutting their borders to stop coronavirus. Is that actually allowed?

Short version: if there are good public health grounds (for example states of emergency), those laws are likely to be held valid.

Could be worth testing if an individual could be proven to be not a thread to public health, but that would be the exception. Thanks MEL_Traveller for sharing the article.

/thread

 

[Pushka]

There is jobseeker and jobkeeper. It's true there are one million out of work, but there are another 12 million still in work.

Jobseeker ends its extra payment at the end of the year. Jobkeeper - an extra 3 months but reduced rate come October. I know as a Small Business that JK is the only thing keeping us employing our people but as our business is mainly Melb clients and whose budgets have been decimated, we know that come end of JK then our business of more than 20 years will change. We are lucky in the sense that main protagonists are of retirement age but that was never the plan. We will be adding to the one million unemployed come April. We have paid company profit tax and personal tax to the Australian economy every year we have existed. Not this year. Never again. Both of those taxes fund those who require public services. We will not be contributing to that pool by way of company profit again. And we are just one of many.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Jobseeker ends its extra payment at the end of the year. Jobkeeper - an extra 3 months but reduced rate come October.

I agree. But we are looking at today. By the end of October things could be very different. Some argue we should have absolute free movement today, despite all the support mechanisms in place, and regardless of whether there's any proven demand to travel on holiday, or even go back to entertainment venues. (I know some who can't wait to go out for dinner, but equally many who do not, and don't consider it worth the risk.)

 

[drron]

Well tonight there is a party on at the student house across the road and another at the Airbnb across the canal.I doubt any Covid restrictions being observed so quite a few that want to be back to normal.

 

[Pushka]

I agree. But we are looking at today. By the end of October things could be very different. Some argue we should have absolute free movement today, despite all the support mechanisms in place, and regardless of whether there's any proven demand to travel on holiday, or even go back to entertainment venues. (I know some who can't wait to go out for dinner, but equally many who do not, and don't consider it worth the risk.)

In some areas yes. For instance the restaurant and cafe earnings. But in the corporate and institutional area where the public dollars are, budgets are already well on the way to being finalised and retrenchments well underway based on next years earnings. Just look at the current retail situations. Covid obviously accelerated any weaknesses in the retail area but now they have collapsed instantly rather than a gradual demise. Commercial rents will be significantly impacted.

 

[james4321]

Well tonight there is a party on at the student house across the road and another at the Airbnb across the canal.I doubt any Covid restrictions being observed so quite a few that want to be back to normal.

No - quite a few are selfish idiots with no regard for anyone else. If you believe they are in contravention of the rules then you should report it and have it shut down as a service to your community.

 

[Seat0B]

Jobseeker ends its extra payment at the end of the year. Jobkeeper - an extra 3 months but reduced rate come October. I know as a Small Business that JK is the only thing keeping us employing our people but as our business is mainly Melb clients and whose budgets have been decimated, we know that come end of JK then our business of more than 20 years will change. We are lucky in the sense that main protagonists are of retirement age but that was never the plan. We will be adding to the one million unemployed come April. We have paid company profit tax and personal tax to the Australian economy every year we have existed. Not this year. Never again. Both of those taxes fund those who require public services. We will not be contributing to that pool by way of company profit again. And we are just one of many.

My small business is in pretty much the same position @Pushka.

 

[jakeseven7]

In some areas yes. For instance the restaurant and cafe earnings. But in the corporate and institutional area where the public dollars are, budgets are already well on the way to being finalised and retrenchments well underway based on next years earnings. Just look at the current retail situations. Covid obviously accelerated any weaknesses in the retail area but now they have collapsed instantly rather than a gradual demise. Commercial rents will be significantly impacted.

Its really hard to explain to people who aren’t in business the impact that this shutdown is causing, it’s not just the cuts it’s the lack of growth. It’s a virus in itself and the multiplier effect across industries has been incredible.

We stopped hiring in Jan/Feb. Started cutting casuals from March and next years budgets has reductions YOY in perm FT’s for the first time in our companies history.

 

[pangwen]

Its really hard to explain to people who aren’t in business the impact that this shutdown is causing, it’s not just the cuts it’s the lack of growth. It’s a virus in itself and the multiplier effect across industries has been incredible.

We stopped hiring in Jan/Feb. Started cutting casuals from March and next years budgets has reductions YOY in perm FT’s for the first time in our companies history.

I think it's difficult to isolate the effects of the (enforced) shutdown and the broader disinclination to travel/invest in spite of the shutdowns.

The company I work for operates across multiple countries around the world, and even in the US (with relatively fewer shutdowns between their states) there have been layoffs/redundancies. The Australian business has seen some redundancies, but (so far) less so compared to the UK although that could be related to Brexit.

In other words, yes there definitely is an impact to business from COVID, but I'd hesitate to pin the majority of the blame on interstate border closures. My feeling has been that it's related to broader (global) unease about the economic outlook, and international political tensions.

 

[oz_mark]

And there are also those who take issue with BS sloganeering.

Speaking of BS sloganeering...

We have to manage it and deal with it and come out from under the doona.

Those under the doona also tend to be on a relatively sound economic footing,

So in concrete terms what would you like to see done? What will it mean to "come out from under the doona" and "manage it"? In your view, what should we put in place to manage this?

 

[MEL_Traveller]

In some areas yes. For instance the restaurant and cafe earnings. But in the corporate and institutional area where the public dollars are, budgets are already well on the way to being finalised and retrenchments well underway based on next years earnings. Just look at the current retail situations. Covid obviously accelerated any weaknesses in the retail area but now they have collapsed instantly rather than a gradual demise. Commercial rents will be significantly impacted.

i think that’s pretty spot on... covid has accelerated weaknesses already there. Sky-high rents were driving cafes and restaurants to the wall pre-covid. And potential restaurant customers were already sampling alternatives such as meals delivered to their door.

Retail shops were already having to deal with competing with quick-delivery online shopping.

House of cards

Its really hard to explain to people who aren’t in business the impact that this shutdown is causing, it’s not just the cuts it’s the lack of growth. It’s a virus in itself and the multiplier effect across industries has been incredible.

We stopped hiring in Jan/Feb. Started cutting casuals from March and next years budgets has reductions YOY in perm FT’s for the first time in our companies history.

Is this about sustaining long term job security or about preserving company profits? Many companies talk about employment, yet complain about penalty rates, replace staff with automation, or are keen to outsource (look at the banks, airlines, small businesses, etc). Workers have been waiting for years for the so-called 'trickle down effect'

 

[Must...Fly!]

Why does long term job security and company profits need to be mutually exclusive?

 

[Pushka]

Why does long term job security and company profits need to be mutually exclusive?

If you dont have some kind of profit then there is no long term job security because most businesses need to plan for changing conditions and have some cash surplus is an essential.

Its really hard to explain to people who aren’t in business the impact that this shutdown is causing, it’s not just the cuts it’s the lack of growth. It’s a virus in itself and the multiplier effect across industries has been incredible.

We stopped hiring in Jan/Feb. Started cutting casuals from March and next years budgets has reductions YOY in perm FT’s for the first time in our companies history.

I sent an email to our accountant back in early February that we were already feeling the impact of Covid because we work with tertiary institutions, in Victoria, who knew they werent getting their overseas intake of students. A double whammy for an SA busimess whose Uni clients are in Melbourne. He was surprised. He lives in an SA bubble. We had casuals too, whom we cut back at the time - they likewise didnt seem to understand that if we werent working in Melbourne that this meant the income of the business was at risk.

 

[Pushka]

Speaking of BS sloganeering...

So in concrete terms what would you like to see done? What will it mean to "come out from under the doona" and "manage it"? In your view, what should we put in place to manage this?

Its a reality not a slogan. Surprisingly our economy is framed on companies making profit and paying company taxes, and people being employed and paying taxes. This funds all those benefits that those who dont or cant work, and who arent self sufficient, receive from the Government. Companies failing, massive unemployment = house of cards. Unsustainable.

We need to come to terms with the fact that we cannot stop this virus. Even with a vaccine. Protect the vulnerable as much as possible by improving the manner in which aged care and other care homes are funded, and improve the conditions of the staff who work there so they are paid enough to work in just one home and who do not risk their income if they are sick, so they dont come to work anyway and infect everyone else.

Even with a vaccine, common flu kills people.

We cannot continue to isolate people from close family members, medical services etc etc by closing off borders and countries. What is the point of living if we cut people off from those whom we consider family? Not a world I want to live in.

We risk something happening everytime we get in a car. A plane. Idiots with knives and guns.

 

[james4321]

We cannot continue to isolate people from close family members, medical services etc etc by closing off borders and countries. What is the point of living if we cut people off from those whom we consider family? Not a world I want to live in.

But we are not expected to have these restrictions forever. We need to exhibit patience and if necessary put aside our personal good for the benefit of the community generally.

 

[drron]

Like this survey from the UK.Lockdowns really good for the benefit of the community.
.

Infographic: Depression spikes during the pandemic

This chart reveals reported increases in depressive symptoms in British adults during the 2020 coronavirus pandemic.

www.statista.com

Remember the country that has had the best results against Covid,Taiwan,did not go into full lockdown.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Remember the country that has had the best results against Covid,Taiwan,did not go into full lockdown.

Chalk and cheese. Taiwan is so different in many ways that the comparison isn't really helpful.

Taiwan got a lot of experience through SARS: they were able to act quickly and early with Covid, closing borders as early as January. Mask wearing is/was also common. There were serious penalties for breaching home quarantine.

None of those things would have worked in Australia. We aren't used to masks. We still wanted to travel (despite the advice, many Aussies still left to go overseas in the month before the border was officially closed to departures). We don't like being told to stay at home.

Next time Australia, and its citizens, will be better equipped and might embrace the measures early to stop the otherwise inevitable lockdowns.

Edited to add: the survey results on depression - I can't see if they are actually linked to the lockdown? The report doesn't say (it seems to only refer to covid more generally?)

 

[antycbr]

Josh Frydenberg says there is “too much cruelty” in the administration of the closed borders, and the federal government would not allow the states to hinder the nation’s economic recovery.

The Australian

Post automatically merged: Aug 30, 2020

But we are not expected to have these restrictions forever. We need to exhibit patience and if necessary put aside our personal good for the benefit of the community generally.

In the case of Western Australia, to the somewhat arbitrary date of March 2021.

The Western Australia State Election is scheduled for March 2021.

By that logic we will never open anything as there is always a state election coming up somewhere.

 

[HappyFlyerFamily]

Josh Frydenberg says there is “too much cruelty” in the administration of the closed borders, and the federal government would not allow the states to hinder the nation’s economic recovery.

The Australian

Post automatically merged: Aug 30, 2020

In the case of Western Australia, to the somewhat arbitrary date of March 2021.

The Western Australia State Election is scheduled for March 2021.

By that logic we will never open anything as there is always a state election coming up somewhere.

I can’t take anything the Federal Treasurer says as in the national interest.

The recent constant sniping of the Vic Premier under the guise of economic protection/restarting is getting ridiculous and stinks of overly party political and as a result has lost a lot of credibility with me.

I guess it’s his job to do foreshadowing/groundwork to see what the national consciousness will accept before the PM does it.

 

[antycbr]

I can’t take anything the Federal Treasurer says as in the national interest.

The recent constant sniping of the Vic Premier under the guise of economic protection/restarting is getting ridiculous and stinks of overly party political and as a result has lost a lot of credibility with me.

I guess it’s his job to do foreshadowing/groundwork to see what the national consciousness will accept before the PM does it.

The first point is your opinion and you're welcome to it.

On the second point - watch the backgrounding by the cabinet and senior backbenchers ramp up this week to create immense pressure on the premiers.

I also expect the PM to withdraw ADF support from states where border closures are not agreed to by the Federal Government and BOTH sides of the relevant border (as is the case in VIC/NSW and VIC/SA).

 

[TheRealTMA]

Like this survey from the UK.Lockdowns really good for the benefit of the community.
View attachment 226486.

Infographic: Depression spikes during the pandemic

This chart reveals reported increases in depressive symptoms in British adults during the 2020 coronavirus pandemic.

www.statista.com

Remember the country that has had the best results against Covid,Taiwan,did not go into full lockdown.

I don’t see that lockdown has anything to do with British depression. If I was living in England during the complete shambles made by Boris and the government, I would definitely be depressed as well, weather not withstanding. Compare Scottish and English depression rates.