speeding in Australia - hertz

[file51]

As for the rental company being ultimately responsilble that doesn't sound correct. The owner of the vehicle is given a choice to either pay the fine without nominating the driver with a extra loading, or to nominate the driver. Once the driver is known or nominated there is no reason for the vehicle owner to be involved for a driver related offence. Hence there is no reason for the rental company to be adding multiple administration charges to a CC because it should have no involvement in the court process involving a known driver. The police have seen the drivers licence and they have the drivers address. The vehicle owner has no further need to be involved.

As per previous, having worked in car rental for 9 years I can assure you if attempts to get the overseas person (driver, etc) fail in lieu of payment of the infringement the fine goes back to the vehicle owner, this is the case in NSW & VIC as at 2004/2005 (very doubtful this would have changed since)

Next time you rent a vehicle have a good read of the terms and conditions of the rental agreement (the full T&C not the abridged ones usually printed on the rental contract form that some companies use) it does clearly state that penalties, etc arising from that rental can be charged by the car rental company directly to your credit card. Aside from insurance and security reasons, this is part of the reason that most major rental car companies will not allow a rental without a credit card (unless you have gone through an intensive cash qualification process for local rentals which does include reporting from various credit reporting agencies).

 

[markis10]

That's all very interesting, but they can only impose demerit points within Australia. .... As for the rental company being ultimately responsilble that doesn't sound correct. The vehicle owner has no further need to be involved.

No one has argued that demrit points apply back home when home is outside of OZ, point is you could accumulate enought points to loose your right to drive in a state, its unlikely that will happen and if you do loose that right chances are you away from the state when the suspension is in force.

In terms of the owner onus, its common sense, without the provision of having ultimate ownership of the offence resting with the owner, it would be too easy for people to blame non existant third parties, these days governments want their money ! Governments know that rental agreements allow a company to chargeback an offence, in this case its a more expeditious way of completing the transaction versus court!

 

[medhead]

As per previous, having worked in car rental for 9 years I can assure you if attempts to get the overseas person (driver, etc) fail in lieu of payment of the infringement the fine goes back to the vehicle owner, this is the case in NSW & VIC as at 2004/2005 (very doubtful this would have changed since)

Next time you rent a vehicle have a good read of the terms and conditions of the rental agreement (the full T&C not the abridged ones usually printed on the rental contract form that some companies use) it does clearly state that penalties, etc arising from that rental can be charged by the car rental company directly to your credit card. Aside from insurance and security reasons, this is part of the reason that most major rental car companies will not allow a rental without a credit card (unless you have gone through an intensive cash qualification process for local rentals which does include reporting from various credit reporting agencies).

I'm not really talking about the T&C, they are accepted as you state.

The fact is that the owners only obligation is to name the driver of the vehicle that committed the offence. They (owner) certainly (based on experience in QLD) are not require to pay the fine. Maybe car rental companies do this because its easy for them to collect the money from the driver. But in the case of taxi owners or business vehicles, the owner is not required to pay the fine provided they nominate the driver. It sounds like an anomaly that wouldn't stand up if anyone (an owner) bothered to test it in court.

Anyway, the way it works is noted and I'll make sure I cancel my credit card if I ever get any fines in a rental car

 

[medhead]

In terms of the owner onus, its common sense, without the provision of having ultimate ownership of the offence resting with the owner, it would be too easy for people to blame non existant third parties, these days governments want their money ! Governments know that rental agreements allow a company to chargeback an offence, in this case its a more expeditious way of completing the transaction versus court!

That is not common sense at all. The driver is responsible under the law not the owner. To penaltise the owner denies natural justice, that is not changed just because the rental car business takes a more expedient approach. As for blaming non-existant third parties - have you heard of Marcus Enfeld? He did exactly that, to get out of paying the fine.

 

[file51]

Governments know that rental agreements allow a company to chargeback an offence, in this case its a more expeditious way of completing the transaction versus court!

Exactly...

It sounds like an anomaly that wouldn't stand up if anyone (an owner) bothered to test it in court.

I am aware of court cases in 1999, 3 in 2002, 2 in 2004 & 1 in 2005 where WTH Pty Ltd (T/A Avis Australia) took the state debt recovery unit to court and lost on all but one case. That case was thrown out due to the original infringement image from a speed camera having being lost with no backup image to prove the offence.

I did very clearly state NSW & VIC as I am under the impression the same does not apply to any other state or territory although WA were looking at introducing a similar process in late 2005

 

[markis10]

Well actually the bit you quoted about the NT made exactly this claim.

No, they said they could remove the right of anyone to drive in NT, not the country their licence is issued in.

 

[medhead]

No, they said they could remove the right of anyone to drive in NT, not the country their licence is issued in.

Ahh, yes sorry. previous post edited.

I'll get some remedial reading lessons from my 8 year old.

 

[medhead]

I am aware of court cases in 1999, 3 in 2002, 2 in 2004 & 1 in 2005 where WTH Pty Ltd (T/A Avis Australia) took the state debt recovery unit to court and lost on all but one case. That case was thrown out due to the original infringement image from a speed camera having being lost with no backup image to prove the offence.

I did very clearly state NSW & VIC as I am under the impression the same does not apply to any other state or territory although WA were looking at introducing a similar process in late 2005

Well, I think NSW and VIC are on dangerous ground. That is the same as if someone stole my kitchen knife and used it to murder someone. In the case where the murderer can't be found (or is known but can't be "fined") but the knife is traced to me, then I'm off to goal as the knife owner.

Interesting, I might even try to look up those cases. I'll accept that happens but I still think it is completely wrong. However, I can only point to Enfeld to support my position. If he hadn't picked a dead person to blame, he would not have had to pay the fine, even as the owner of the car.
Cheers for the info.

 

[oz_mark]

I did very clearly state NSW & VIC as I am under the impression the same does not apply to any other state or territory although WA were looking at introducing a similar process in late 2005

Owner Onus was introduced into WA in 2006. Basic idea is that at any given time the owner of a car is responsible for knowing who is driving it (or needs to take reasonable measures to ensure they know who is driving it). If the owner can't identify the driver or can't show they took reasonable measures to know who was driving the vehicle, then they cop the penalty.

In WA at least, the owner can be fined for failing to identify the driver, or failing to take reasonable measures to ensure they know who the driver is. So a company can say they don't know (and get fined $5000 for not knowing), or identify the driver.

 

[iskyfly]

wow! thanks to everyone for your replies.

i guess the short of it is- i was in the wrong for speeding. i will pay the fine. i was just more curious about the demerit points. being an australian citizien without an australian drivers license and living overseas i was wondering what non monetary penalties (ie demerit points) would (could?) be applied. as i do return every year for xmas holidays it is important to me that I maintain my driving privileges.

now how do i go about paying the fine in AU$ from the US.... wonder if i can pay online via cc...


thanks again and cheers!

 

[one9]

one9 is actually incorrect.

The RTA, then state debt recovery unit will send the fine to the driver once details have been provided by the rental company. If that fails to be paid then the fine is sent to the Rental car company, which is when they can legally charge the credit card to recover such cost.

As some may understand here, especially for red light camera offences etc etc, if a driver is not identified, i.e. a company registered car, rental car etc etc, instead of the vehicle owner losing points (this only happens for privately owned vehicles) the vehicle owner is slugged with a massive fine, I have seen them in the vicinity of $2,000 plus gst. At the end of the day, fines that end up coming back to the Rental Car company are charged via there credit card (as per RA T&C). Usually when that happens you are placed on a "Do Not Rent" database, and that will cause no end of troubles if you travel.

If you think just use a competitor, think again... Cendant own both Avis & Budget and use the same infrastructure, they also own Travelport/Orbitz, Wyndham group and many other companies that are in the travel industry, and YES, they share some common databases, such as risk customers, etc etc. I realise your rental car was from Hertz, however they have the same sort of contacts within the industry.

For the sake of a $100-200 fine, it is easier paid and dealt with before it turns into a nightmare.

In NSW the owner of the vehicle only has an obligation to NOTIFY the State Debt Recovery Office of the driver. Once the owner has notified the SDRO of the driver, then the owner is no longer responsible regardless of whether or not the driver pays. I have experience in terms of company cars and the notification process. Once a company has notifed the SDRO of the driver, the company is no way involved. The fine is reissued to the driver. The company/owner is only given a massive fine when they FAIL TO NOMINATE. Some companies do not nominate the driver to they are given a large fine (eg. $1000-$2000)

In the Op's case, the fine was a police fine to the driver. This fine in no way involves the owner. This type of fine is different to a speed camera fine which is sent by default to the owner. A police fine direct to a driver only involves the driver - it never involves the owner.

The SDRO in 2008 did not have power to enforce fines on interstate visitors. Yes they would give fines and send reminder notices. But if the interstate driver did not pay, the SDRO has no legal power in other states to do anything to the driver. If you google terms like "loophole no enforcement of interstate drivers" you will find a couple of articles talking about how the SDRO had no legal power to enfoce the fines sent to interstate drivers and how the states were looking into seeing if they could do anything. The SDRO uses things like garnishee orders which they have absolutely no leagal power to give to interstate residents.

Some posters have mixed up thinking the owner is responsible. Law was introduced to make the owner responsible for always knowing who is driving their car, and for significant penalties to the owner if they are not able to nominate the driver.

 

[markis10]

The SDRO in 2008 did not have power to enforce fines on interstate visitors. Yes they would give fines and send reminder notices. But if the interstate driver did not pay, the SDRO has no legal power in other states to do anything to the driver.

Only half true, the fines act 1996 does allow for reciprocal action against corporations by the SDRO and this is what they are obviously using to go after the rental companies with, and the cause of many complaints! It has been mentioned in the audit reports each year for some time.

There is significant material in Hansard in relation to complaints by such rental companies to substantiate what is common practice, after all if you are a rental company and such an office/authority comes to you with a demand, what are you going to do, argue the toss at your cost in terms of time and possibly monies or just enforce the agreement you have with the renter and charge them the amount in question + a service fee ??

Legalities aside, the debt recovery authorities are benchmarked on their success, and if they know a rental agreement allows recovery by the owner of an outstanding fine, they are clearly going after it, obviously for non rental companies its a different story based on the lack of complaints on hansard.

 

[dot]

wow! thanks to everyone for your replies.

i guess the short of it is- i was in the wrong for speeding. i will pay the fine. i was just more curious about the demerit points. being an australian citizien without an australian drivers license and living overseas i was wondering what non monetary penalties (ie demerit points) would (could?) be applied. as i do return every year for xmas holidays it is important to me that I maintain my driving privileges.

now how do i go about paying the fine in AU$ from the US.... wonder if i can pay online via cc...


thanks again and cheers!

I think paying the fine is the smart thing to do, but I personally doubt that any Australian demerit points could have any effect on your US licence - I would not expect the demerit points system in any Australian state to tie in with demerit points/penalty system in your US state.

Is there any way you can check your current US demerit balance and see if there have been any recent debits (if your US state uses demerit points that is...)? If you were driving on an Oz licence, that would be a different matter - demerit points do cross Australian state boundaries.

 

[SFSC]

I think paying the fine is the smart thing to do, but I personally doubt that any Australian demerit points could have any effect on your US licence - I would not expect the demerit points system in any Australian state to tie in with demerit points/penalty system in your US state.

Is there any way you can check your current US demerit balance and see if there have been any recent debits (if your US state uses demerit points that is...)? If you were driving on an Oz licence, that would be a different matter - demerit points do cross Australian state boundaries.

It's probably only a matter of time before demerits start coming home to roost just about anywhere where there is a similar system.

Enforcement has come a long way since 1981 when a work colleague was pulled up at 2:00 AM one morning after not stopping at a stop sign in Salix, IA but told "you know, I'm going to let you go" after unfolding and presenting his NSW paper licence.

 

[bonjour]

Someone mentioned "The RTA & NSW government has no enforcement power to enforce the fine on someone who is not a NSW resident. Nor can they do anything to your overseas driving licence. The only thing they can do is put a restriction on you from doing business with the RTA in the future until you have paid your fine. ".

If someone living overseas do not pay their NSW fine, looks like they can't do much. As far as you know do the RTA and NSW government have the power to make the person pay when they enter or live the country.

Someone living overseas might not be worried by doing business with the RTA. So not paying their fine will not be a problem unless they are given a big fine the next time they enter the country.