SMH: Air France jet clips tail of plane at JFK airport

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WOW! Gives a whole new meaning to the term "quick turnaround"!
 
My understanding is that it just landed and was moving to the terminal.

I read the original story as the AF flight taxiing to the runway to leave, while the CRJ had just landed and was taxiing to the terminal. From the footage though, it looks like the CRJ was parked up quite a bit from the terminal, a little oddly.
 
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was the A380 allowed to fly? surely it wasn't right?


Its not even being repaired, its impounded by the investigators. As for people having a go at the Air France Pilots, while they have a responsibility or duty of care to be looking where they are going, its actually ATCs responsibility to make sure such accidents dont happen, if the pilots where on the right taxiway then I dont see them taking too much blame.
 
Its not even being repaired, its impounded by the investigators. As for people having a go at the Air France Pilots, while they have a responsibility or duty of care to be looking where they are going, its actually ATCs responsibility to make sure such accidents dont happen, if the pilots where on the right taxiway then I dont see them taking too much blame.

Markis, excuse my ignorance, but when I've been in the USA and listened to ATC on United Airlines, the instructions seemed to be like : "UA123, you are cleared for push-back after American Airlines 737 passes". So do the UA pilots have watch for the 737 or do they get new permission from ATC? It's just that perhaps AF was cleared for taxi once the CRJ passed in front?
 
Markis, excuse my ignorance, but when I've been in the USA and listened to ATC on United Airlines, the instructions seemed to be like : "UA123, you are cleared for push-back after American Airlines 737 passes". So do the UA pilots have watch for the 737 or do they get new permission from ATC? It's just that perhaps AF was cleared for taxi once the CRJ passed in front?

In that case the responsibility remains with the Pilot/Tug/Pushback Engineer to confirm visually they have clearance before proceeding. IMHO such visual responsibility being passed to pilots is not as common on taxi clearances because there are more variables, having listed to the audio I dont believe any responsibility was given to the pilots of the A380, the last transmission is to give way to opposite direction traffic, not crossing traffic.

Its an easy trap to fall into making assessments so early after an accident and without all the facts, there could well have been a hold short of crossing traffic command given and its not on the replay, but it would appear this is an ATC issue, its bad practice to give multiple commands to the one aircraft in the one hit, such as a hold to clear then taxi via ABC, you run the risk of pilots on hearing the later part and missing the hold till clear part. If you listen to the tape, his prior instruction is not very clear either IMHO.

BTW I propose that clip should be shown on any aircraft that has a passenger trying to undo their seatbelt before reaching the gate!

A post on Prune would confirm my thoughts re ATC not giving any notice:

AF was cleared to taxy along A and hold short at E for a 22R departure. Next call was to hold at KD for opposite direction traffic. Accident actually happened at the junction of A and M, well before that, so there was no call from ATC to warn about the CRJ. I would assume that is because ATC had not been informed that there was a problem

Taxiway chart here to help
http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/1104/00610AD.PDF

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/...lane-new-yorks-jfk-airport-3.html#post6365681
 
I read the original story as the AF flight taxiing to the runway to leave, while the CRJ had just landed and was taxiing to the terminal. From the footage though, it looks like the CRJ was parked up quite a bit from the terminal, a little oddly.

It looked from the video I saw that the CRJ has stoped because of the white car/van is in its way or crossing its gate. Then of course people were running....

It must be difficult to judge the wing span of those and it looks tight anyway..IMHO

I don't think the Delta flight was in the mood for any sort of kissing - french or not:oops:
 
It surprises me how 'low tech' ground movements of aircraft sometimes seems to be. There still seems to be a lot of visual judgement required by pilots. And if that is the case I guess the A380 crew should have seen/judged the CRJ's position regardless of ATC. At JFK there is an ADSE-X system and if the blurbs about ADSE-X are anything to go by, this is one of the situations they were supposed to help with.

The map shown on PPRuNe Forums - Professional Pilots Rumour Network ( http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l165/Hvck/jfk.jpg ) shows that taxiway A is clockwise. But the AF A380 was travelling anticlockwise (from AF's gate in terminal 1, past terminal 2?). Are the taxiway directions at JFK changed to suit traffic?
 
"Clips", ha :D:D:D. That was not a "clip".

Of course, if it was a QF A380, the headline would be something along the lines of "Qantas jumbo smashes right through the middle of poor defenseless plane"... :rolleyes:
 
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From the CGI I saw tonight on the news at the pub, it seemed to suggest a ground vehicle cut in front of the CRJ, making it stop short, and then the A380 didn’t see this and clipped it before it had a chance to move.
 
It's those bloody A380's again - always in some sort of trouble ;)

Quite a bit of news coverage here in the LOTFAP
 
If push came to shove in the Australian market, perhaps an QF-A380 will take out a V jet in this accidental way.
That's quite an offensive comment to be honest.

Parking with one's tail over the obstruction line was a habit that Ansett developed late in its life. Aircraft approaching the holding points would stop well short of the holding point, with their tails over the obstruction lines. That would stop any traffic passing behind them. It was quite pointed, as it was only done if the traffic on the taxiway behind was painted a different colour. Also incredibly unprofessional. Bloody stupid too, as eventually someone won't notice, although that's less likely with the smaller jets (737/320) that were normally involved.

But, as I see this incident....
Firstly JFK is a bloody woeful place to taxi around. Narrow, no fillets in the turns, traffic everywhere, and controllers who speak at a million miles an hour, in some language other than english. And who can be terribly unforgiving of someone who needs a repeat of an instruction.

The ATC tape indicates that the A380 was appropriately cleared to taxi, and had not gone past any limit points.

Whilst the 380 looks to be fast in the video, a bit of maths shows him to be doing about 15 knots, which is quite an appropriate speed. You cannot see the wing tips at all in the 380.

Smaller aircraft are often just about invisible at night. Especially on the apron areas, their lights can simply disappear in amongst the myriad other lighting displays.

The regional jet appears to have stopped well short of his gate. In so doing, he has left his tail infringing the clearance lines of the taxiway. ATC would have expected him to have crossed the line, and to have said something about it if he hadn't. Very likely stopping in that position was standard behaviour, but it only became an issue when a 380 crossed behind, even though it would be equally 'illegal' for any other aircraft.

Fault...well, at the end of the day, if you run into the back of someone in your car, it is always your fault, no matter what stories you can think of to try to justify it. Same applies in an aircraft...if you run into something whilst you are moving under power, it's your fault. But, I expect there are quite a few mitigating circumstances here, with some level of help having been provided by both ATC and the RJ.
 
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