Singapore Airlines and Flight Centre falling out ?

[tadlam]

I was interested to see Travel Guru comment

In my experience, you get what you pay for, and those who shop on price alone usually do.
Thankfully there are plenty of people out there who don't shop on price alone but shop on value and are happy to pay for service, especially when it means not devaluing their time to the point where they're doing their own travel bookings.

when if we are chatting about Singapore Airlines for example, that would clearly not be the case. Singapore Airlines are hardly ever the cheapest but they’ve certainly had the most consistently good service for me over the last 15 years on the LHR-AKL/SYD route particularly.

I’m not sure about others but I’m definitely prepared to pay for decent service and added value.

I’ve had a consistently bad service from TA’s in Australia. What I have received are quotes that were consistently expensive and a poor level of knowledge or understanding of destinations (Cambodia, Vietnam and Finland were recent examples – hardly “off the beaten track”). When I have to explain who Silk Air is or where Vietnam Airlines flies to a TA, now that’s devaluing my time.

I’m not averse to using a TA, (if I could find a decent one here I may use them for some things) but I strongly object to paying for something so wholly substandard. I can’t say I had the same experience in the UK, where I received a good service in the past – perhaps the agents are a little better travelled than here.

Still booking direct flights and Trip Advisor for me.

 

[sadlier]

I find it hard to reconcile people comparing FC to a competent and aware travel agent. To me they are a bucket shop and thats that.

And whilst the fares on the SQ site might be pretty cheap you need to be aware that for multi destination bookings they are offering the cheapest fare with all the restrictions that you can think of. If you want to pay a little more for a more flexible ticket you need to book each return sector separately. And be aware that once you commence travel you cannot change online - you have to deal with one of their offices.

For me it all makes it worthwhile to use a decent travel agent.

 

[tadlam]

Thanks Sadlier - would love to know about a decent travel agent.

I have to say, none of my examples were actually FC (3 others - 2 "independent") and I've changed numerous times with just about every major airline both before and after travelling (yes, for changes you do need to speak to the airline) - only had one hiccup with AirNZ - who got a bit bureaucratic (knew Sing should have bought Ansett!!).

I have had tickets booked through a travel agent that needed changing and that was another thing that put me off them - much easier to deal with any number of the ticket offices/desks/employees of Sing (or other) airlines globally than try to get "Trev" at "Not Much" Travel Agency (apologies if there is a Trev at Not Much Travel, my example was pulled out of the hat there).

Again, happy to pay for decent service and added value. That's the key.

 

[SIA1A]

[/list]

Sounds more like an advertisement for SQ...are you sure you don't work for them?? Given the large contract they've lost in the past week I wouldn't put it past them to post messages like this :mrgreen::mrgreen:

I'm quite sure (go back over my history here!). Are you a frequent traveller yourself? If you are, you would know about the reasons people like me prefer suppliers like SQ.

In all seriousness though, it's not really a fair comparison to make between a multi national who is doing their travel in house with that of most other business travellers simply because you're able to achieve economies of scale

I think it is very relevant to make the comparison. Major companies (including the top 100 Australian companies) operate in more ore less the same manner as my employer. I note that the vast majority of people that I meet flying F and J work for the major business organisations of both Australia and the world. It is these customers that drive the demand for the more profitable seats and it should not surprise you that the major airlines woo them, via direct relationships with the airlines.

for them to organise their travel in house simply isn't economical once you take into account staff wages and lost productivity etc.

Au contraire, we find that online reservation systems minimise staff involvement in the booking process and in fact increase our productivity. Agency arrangements, because of that middle-man, inevitably result in more time wasted by our own people.

To generalise and say that TA's can't add value to business travellers is not only wrong (and i'm talking from years of experience in the travel industry, not from personal opinion)

TAs probably added value in years gone by, before the advent of automated booking systems, but I challenge you to demonstrate how they add value now, at any level of spend, to experienced frequent-flying business travellers.

to suggest TA's have no buying power when it comes to securing discounts is also incorrect.

They may have buying power (I suggest that these days it is not significant buying power) but most agents can't, or won't, disclose the extent of the discounts to their clients and charge full-tote odds plus booking fees etc to their clients. Even low-volume clients seem to wind up paying more to use an agent than they pay by dealing direct with suppliers.

I find business travellers gain immense value from using my agency, especially those in the 80k-1 million spend p.a. (which is far less than your company would be spending given you have your own SQ deal.), and have no lack of new corporate business coming through the door because we add value both to their bottom line and by making their lives easier.

That's good to hear. You must be operating at an exceptional level. Well done. Can you give some specific examples about how you add "immense" value?

By the way, it is my impression that SQ will do corporate deals with customers who turn over far less than $1M pa (data gained from talking to fellow travellers). It seems clear that SQ is very keen to chase the corporate dollar and this means dealing direct and getting to know its customers very well. Those customers are not travel agents (sorry!) - they are frequent flyers.

 

[Travel Guru]

I'm quite sure (go back over my history here!). Are you a frequent traveller yourself? If you are, you would know about the reasons people like me prefer suppliers like SQ.


I think it is very relevant to make the comparison. Major companies (including the top 100 Australian companies) operate in more ore less the same manner as my employer. I note that the vast majority of people that I meet flying F and J work for the major business organisations of both Australia and the world. It is these customers that drive the demand for the more profitable seats and it should not surprise you that the major airlines woo them, via direct relationships with the airlines.

Au contraire, we find that online reservation systems minimise staff involvement in the booking process and in fact increase our productivity. Agency arrangements, because of that middle-man, inevitably result in more time wasted by our own people.

TAs probably added value in years gone by, before the advent of automated booking systems, but I challenge you to demonstrate how they add value now, at any level of spend, to experienced frequent-flying business travellers.

They may have buying power (I suggest that these days it is not significant buying power) but most agents can't, or won't, disclose the extent of the discounts to their clients and charge full-tote odds plus booking fees etc to their clients. Even low-volume clients seem to wind up paying more to use an agent than they pay by dealing direct with suppliers.

That's good to hear. You must be operating at an exceptional level. Well done. Can you give some specific examples about how you add "immense" value?

By the way, it is my impression that SQ will do corporate deals with customers who turn over far less than $1M pa (data gained from talking to fellow travellers). It seems clear that SQ is very keen to chase the corporate dollar and this means dealing direct and getting to know its customers very well. Those customers are not travel agents (sorry!) - they are frequent flyers.

If you care to edit out the arrogance and condescension from your post i'll justify it with a response, but until then i've got better things to do with my time.

TG

 

[FL360]

I echo many of the pax here on TAs.

In summary, TAs are like car mechanics, there are some really good ones out there who know what they are doing and will save you money and provide gold service, BUT if you just walk in any mechanics chances for you to be ripped off left, right and middle is high. I can’t fix my car because I don’t know and I don’t have the tools, but I can book flights from the web.

I have a friend who wants to get a return flight to LHR for July, her TAs gave her three quotes on the same fare class which is from $2,100 from Sydney, from multiple carriers ….. and when I get a quote from Thai airways which is having a sale right now, ~$1,600 and gave it to her TA she quickly got the same flight and match the price, and I ask, why didn't she gave her the Thai quote the first place ? I guess ignorance and higher commission from higher priced flights !

and TG, no TAs are NOT professionals, professionals like doctors, lawyers, accountants etc went through universities, and attended (and pass) professional exams from their respective associations, and maintain their knowledge through continuing professional development programs, to keep their license they need to prove that their knowledge is up to date….. TA industry have none of that.

Also, have a check of the flights you have done in the past year, I am sure most of us only have simple flights which can be done by booking online…

As for travel advice from TAs, there are alternatives which are equal or better than them from the web, I use wikitravel for general location information, wotif and expedia and the like for accommodation, tripadvisor for hotel reviews, and of course google maps to check the place out before hand to see if they are close to transportation / tourist sites etc…:mrgreen::mrgreen:

 

[sadlier]

Thanks Sadlier - would love to know about a decent travel agent.

I have to say, none of my examples were actually FC (3 others - 2 "independent") and I've changed numerous times with just about every major airline both before and after travelling (yes, for changes you do need to speak to the airline) - only had one hiccup with AirNZ - who got a bit bureaucratic (knew Sing should have bought Ansett!!).

I have had tickets booked through a travel agent that needed changing and that was another thing that put me off them - much easier to deal with any number of the ticket offices/desks/employees of Sing (or other) airlines globally than try to get "Trev" at "Not Much" Travel Agency (apologies if there is a Trev at Not Much Travel, my example was pulled out of the hat there).

Again, happy to pay for decent service and added value. That's the key.

I deal with two travel agents - one in Melbourne for about 15 years and one in Singapore (introduced to me by a client) for about 5 years. They both have the same sort of customer base - a few corporates that provide bulk and a bunch of SME's like me who suck up the same deals.

And I find it easier to do changes via the agent - just a quick note on skype and its done.

 

[SIA1A]

If you care to edit out the arrogance and condescension from your post i'll justify it with a response, but until then i've got better things to do with my time.

TG

Until you wrote that, I could have been a potential customer of yours.

No edits are necessary because the attributes that you allege are entirely of your own making. We're all in the big league here - if you can't handle robust and reasoned criticism...

In particular, the fact that you are not interested in justifying your claim that TAs add "immense" value suggestst that you are beating a very empty barrel.

Also, the fact that you have contributed just shy of 1,000 posts here on Frequent Flyer indicates that you have plenty of spare time. Perhaps your agency is not as busy as you would have me believe.

 

[serfty]

[mod hat]
Hey guys, please stick to the topic rather than post bordering closely on personal insults. I't would be a shame to have to take further action. :-|
[/mod hat]

 

[cbourl]

hey I only used Flight Centre becoz they were price competetive - I find most TA (independent or chain-store) are pretty much the same - I know the airfare rules and provide thewm with them and they still can't get the booking right - when they run it by SAS or LH or LX they have to alter the booking - but my motto is why pay more for something then you have to - if the TA is efficient give them your business - I found a good TA at Flight Centre in Adleaide (wont say which store) after my regular TA at an independent TA resigned - but we all seem to agree that overall Flight Centre is a bucket shop with bucket service - and ALSO many independent agencies dont perform much better so whats the big deal - apples are apples - if you expect expeditious service my experience has been to buy direct fro mthe airline, and then they habe their reg $250 cancellation fee, not the $1050 Flight Centre cancellation fee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Im still confused about why they wouldnt sell me a Star Alliance airpass when they had just sold me a LX rtw ticket (both ways via US)

 

[cbourl]

Anyway - as for SQ - when Ive travelled on a SK combo fare x2, it has always been impossible to get a flight out of Adleaide becasue of the lowest booking class assigned to connect with the lx or tg flights to BKK -and SQ always stuff you around saying the waitlist will be cleared will be cleared and never does - which is why I decided to leave from Sydney and fly with UA to JFK to connect with LX -ge tto see my freind and family in NYC, and get to go on the new Swiss A330-300 - and managed to get a throne seat ont the new A330-300 which is normally allowed only to LX senators - all via flight centre -and got my upgrades to first with UA as soon as the ticket was issued, with only one phone call to united
my epereicnes with SQ are ok on board service, but try to use their lounges when travelling F or C on another star alliance carrier and dont expect entry or time of day from SQ door attendants

 

[stryker]

Anyway - as for SQ - when Ive travelled on a SK combo fare x2, it has always been impossible to get a flight out of Adleaide becasue of the lowest booking class assigned to connect with the lx or tg flights to BKK -and SQ always stuff you around saying the waitlist will be cleared will be cleared and never does - which is why I decided to leave from Sydney and fly with UA to JFK to connect with LX -ge tto see my freind and family in NYC, and get to go on the new Swiss A330-300 - and managed to get a throne seat ont the new A330-300 which is normally allowed only to LX senators - all via flight centre -and got my upgrades to first with UA as soon as the ticket was issued, with only one phone call to united
my epereicnes with SQ are ok on board service, but try to use their lounges when travelling F or C on another star alliance carrier and dont expect entry or time of day from SQ door attendants

But that's OK. If you press your case, you will either be admitted or sent to another lounge (*A rules). Not really a problem

And if you had a Priority Pass (as I do), you most likely would be able to get into an even better club.

 

[cbourl]

I do have a priority pass - I just like to try out as many lounges as possible I also have a copy of the satar alliance manual which is freely available to anyone who knows how to find it - and SQ dont ever seem to respect the manual - same as LH in Athens

 

[AlphaVictor]

Flight Centre have raised the stakes this morning by offering a "Price Beat or Fly Free" decree to the market which is squarely aimed at airlines selling direct (such as SQ) and online agents (such as Webjet and its current $150 paypal discount)

There are the usual "100 hoops" to jump through to get the free flight which indicates it is more of a PR stunt than an actual business initiative.

"If FC can't beat your written quote from travel agent or online travel agent (in Australia) and there is availability (plus a few other terms and conditions about corporate deals, closed user groups and group fares) then they will fly you free to your destination"

Now I'm not suggesting that if you have a travel agent friend, who might write you a quote for a few hundrew dollars less than their nett fare for you to present to FC to get either a very heavily discounted airfare or a free flight. I would never suggest that lol!

It just re-inforces FC reputation as the "copy & paste" mob.
"Bring us your travel agents hard work, initiatives and creativity and we'll just copy and paste it and give it to you for a $1 less"

 

[bobbyjo_sing]

Yes I received the email too, most of the time I buy my flights direct from Singapore Air on their excellent web site, I just find it quicker and most of the time you can't find better prices anyway. I know that Singapore have been doing what they can to make ends meet during the current financial crisis including cutting the number of flights from Melbourne to Manchester, which is my normal flight but they are most accommodating when changing flights and isn't it the best and easiest stop over anywhere on that route? Good luck Singapore obviously a well run company who aren't going to be blackmailed by flight centre.

 

[Travel Guru]

Until you wrote that, I could have been a potential customer of yours.

No edits are necessary because the attributes that you allege are entirely of your own making. We're all in the big league here - if you can't handle robust and reasoned criticism...

In particular, the fact that you are not interested in justifying your claim that TAs add "immense" value suggestst that you are beating a very empty barrel.

Also, the fact that you have contributed just shy of 1,000 posts here on Frequent Flyer indicates that you have plenty of spare time. Perhaps your agency is not as busy as you would have me believe.

It’s obvious by your response that you’re stuck in a mindset of work and hour, get paid an hour.
As it happens, I run two successful businesses in the same (actually probably less) time than you take to maintain one job.

The fact that I choose to post on this site is absolutely no reflection on how busy or successful I am, unlike some, I don’t do it do stroke my own ego, I do it both to learn and to provide the occasional advice or assistance.

I do travel regularly, both for business and pleasure, both of which I pay to sit in the pointy end of the plane (unless a travel company is kind enough to foot the bill).

With regard to my not going into details regarding what my business offers, I don’t feel the need seek validation from people like yourself regarding whether you approve of my business model, the proof is in the results, and I’ll happily compare my P&L to your group certificate any day of the week.

As far as you suggesting you may have been a potential client, it’s possible, but given that A. I don’t solicit business on FF, and B. I only take new clients by personal referral, it’s doubtful.


The reason I posted on this particular discussion thread in the first place, was mainly to provide a different view on the discussion at hand, period, it wasn’t so I could be bombarded or abused by those seeking to stroke their own egos or to let everyone know about a bad experience with an agent back in 1983, and I’ll certainly think twice before investing my time into such a discussion again.

TG

 

[Keith009]

The reason I posted on this particular discussion thread in the first place, was mainly to provide a different view on the discussion at hand, period, it wasn’t so I could be bombarded or abused by those seeking to stroke their own egos or to let everyone know about a bad experience with an agent back in 1983, and I’ll certainly think twice before investing my time into such a discussion again.

And that'd be a real shame! I'm sure a great number of posters have benefitted from your insightful posts about the industry and overrall contribution to AFF.

 

[docjames]

And that'd be a real shame! I'm sure a great number of posters have benefitted from your insightful posts about the industry and overrall contribution to AFF.

+1 to that - please dont stop posting on account of one flame-out!

 

[FL360]

Looks like singapore airlines is on the attack...

Today they just started a sale,
travel from July to end of Nov 09.

all fares return, all inclusive... "from" prices...
but I see lots of dates available. from SIA.com

For example,

SYD<=>SIN $705
SYD<=>HKG $729
SYD<=>LHR $1436....

All SIA need to do now is to do their own marketing,
for example newspapers / tv ads....

these are low low fares unseen before.....

 

[Travel Guru]

All SIA need to do now is to do their own marketing,
for example newspapers / tv ads....

these are low low fares unseen before.....

You mean unseen since last time they had a sale 2 months ago??

Unfortunately selling seats at these levels is neither sustainable nor viable long term, and as soon as the economy picks up, it'll spell the end of these sort of ridiculously cheap fares.

TG