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Seat Availability

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JohnK

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Sorry to repeat an earlier query again.

Using basic version of KVS tool shows cabin class availability for QF51 on Dec 26th as the following, Cabin class: R0 J4 C4 D4 S0 Y7 B0 H0 Q0 M0 N0 K0 L0 V0 O0 and for QF52 on Jan 4 as the following Cabin class: R4 J4 C4 D4 S0 Y7 B7 H4 Q0 M4 N0 K4 L4 V0 O0 .

Would the above suggest that QF51 is full, or even oversold, in economy as only Y is available. One week to go and still business class seats available? Possible chance of upgrade? Who knows. Could I interpret that QF52 shows plenty of availability in economy.

I would appreciate any help from someone that understands booking classes.
 

NM

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For QF51 BNE-SIN on 26th Dec 2005, I am seeing the following from KVS using Sabre:
J9 C9 D9 I2 U0 Y9 B8 H6 K4 M2 R2 L2 V2 S2 N2 O2 Q2

and pretty much the same on Amadeus with the addition of X1. Given that there is an award seat to be had in economy, I don't think it is oversold. Lots of room up front, so a good chance that a waitlisted upgrade using points or SCs will be successful.

And for QF52 SIN-BNE on 4th Jan 2006, I am seeing the following:
J9 C9 D9 I4 U0 Y9 B9 H9 K9 M9 R9 L9 V0 S0 N0 Q0 X0

So again lots of room up front and plenty of cheapish seats still available down the back, but no really cheap ones.
 

Kiwi Flyer

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Its not surprising there is paid business availability given the dates.

Agree with NM - neither looks oversold to me.
 

JohnK

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NM said:
For QF51 BNE-SIN on 26th Dec 2005, I am seeing the following from KVS using Sabre:
J9 C9 D9 I2 U0 Y9 B8 H6 K4 M2 R2 L2 V2 S2 N2 O2 Q2

and pretty much the same on Amadeus with the addition of X1. Given that there is an award seat to be had in economy, I don't think it is oversold. Lots of room up front, so a good chance that a waitlisted upgrade using points or SCs will be successful.

And for QF52 SIN-BNE on 4th Jan 2006, I am seeing the following:
J9 C9 D9 I4 U0 Y9 B9 H9 K9 M9 R9 L9 V0 S0 N0 Q0 X0

So again lots of room up front and plenty of cheapish seats still available down the back, but no really cheap ones.
:? Any idea on why such a big difference in seat availability for the same flight from the basic KVS tool I used to the paid KVS tool one you are using.

This is where my understanding goes down the drain and I am totally lost.
 

NM

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JohnK said:
:? Any idea on why such a big difference in seat availability for the same flight from the basic KVS tool I used to the paid KVS tool one you are using.

This is where my understanding goes down the drain and I am totally lost.
You gets what you pays for :D .

Which "Method" does the basic KVS too use? With the paid version you get a choice of lots of different res systems and none are give the results you mention. All are consistent for me.
 

JohnK

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NM said:
JohnK said:
You gets what you pays for :D .

Which "Method" does the basic KVS too use? With the paid version you get a choice of lots of different res systems and none are give the results you mention. All are consistent for me.
Not your problem but I don't understand why the inconsistency for me. :?

I use this link I got from you or serfty before.

http://flyaow.com/classcwt.htm

And this is the result BNE-SIN Dec 26 and SIN-BNE Jan 4. I get other flight options as well which I have not included.


Qantas Airways
Flight: 51
Departs
Brisbane (BNE)
December 26
1:40 pm Arrives
Singapore (SIN)
December 26
7:30 pm Notes
Cabin class: R0 J4 C4 D4 S0 Y7 B7 H0 Q0 M0 N0 K0 L0 V0 O0
Meal:
Distance: 3815 mi
Stops: non-stop
Flight Time: 7:50
Airbus A330Airbus A330

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Qantas Airways
Flight: 52
Departs
Singapore (SIN)
January 4
9:10 pm Arrives
Brisbane (BNE)
January 5 (Next day)
6:45 am Notes
Cabin class: R4 J4 C4 D4 S0 Y7 B7 H4 Q0 M4 N0 K4 L4 V0 O0
Meal:
Distance: 3815 mi
Stops: non-stop
Flight Time: 7:35
Airbus A330Airbus A330

--------------------------------------------------------------

As you said you get what you paid for. :?
 

NM

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Carlson Wagonlit use Sabre for their bookings, so I would have expected they would be using Sabre for their on-line tool also. Airlines can control what availability is published to the various markets and the various reservation systems.
 

Mal

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Another source shows the following:

QF51 J9 C9 D9 I2 U0 Y8 B7 H5 K3 M1 R0 L0 V0 S0 N0 Q0 O0 G0 T0 X0 E0
QF52 J9 C9 D9 I4 U0 Y9 B9 H9 K9 M9 R9 L9 V0 S0 N0 Q0 O0 G0 T0 X0 E0

To me, from those figures it shows that the outbound flight is fairly tight and has less than 9 seats left in Y. Plenty in J class though.

The inbound flight would probably have 20+ free seats in Y at this stage and lots in J.

Of course like everything, and has been discussed above, these figures may not be 100% reliable (Nor may my interpretation!)
 

JohnK

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NM said:
Carlson Wagonlit use Sabre for their bookings, so I would have expected they would be using Sabre for their on-line tool also. Airlines can control what availability is published to the various markets and the various reservation systems.
Information overload. I am so confused. :? And still no consistency.

QF51 Dec 26th Availability
Carlson Wagonlit : R0 J4 C4 D4 S0 Y7 B0 H0 Q0 M0 N0 K0 L0 V0 O0
NM from Sabre : J9 C9 D9 I2 U0 Y9 B8 H6 K4 M2 R2 L2 V2 S2 N2 O2 Q2
Mal from ? : J9 C9 D9 I2 U0 Y8 B7 H5 K3 M1 R0 L0 V0 S0 N0 Q0 O0 G0 T0 X0 E0

QF52 Jan 4th Availability
Carlson Wagonlit : R4 J4 C4 D4 S0 Y7 B7 H4 Q0 M4 N0 K4 L4 V0 O0
NM from Sabre : J9 C9 D9 I4 U0 Y9 B9 H9 K9 M9 R9 L9 V0 S0 N0 Q0 X0
Mal from ? : J9 C9 D9 I4 U0 Y9 B9 H9 K9 M9 R9 L9 V0 S0 N0 Q0 O0 G0 T0 X0 E0

Can anyone else come up with different availability to the above?

I am not giving up my day job to become a travel consultant. You would almost certainly think that they were sourcing the information from the same database. Perhaps a goto statement in the wrong spot. :roll:

Give up John and with the little sanity remaining board the plane and don't worry about seat availability. Again. Ever.
 

Mal

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When you analyse the difference between NM's results and mine, they really aren't that different.

Obviously QF sold one or two seats in Y that affected the results between when NM got his stats and I got mine.

Note the differences. Very small. Maybe spotting seat vacancies isn't so hard? Keep in mind one important fact: The same seat can live in many different possible fare buckets. Removal of one seat can affect many buckets...
 

Kiwi Flyer

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JohnK said:
I am not giving up my day job to become a travel consultant. You would almost certainly think that they were sourcing the information from the same database. Perhaps a goto statement in the wrong spot. :roll:
Not directly. As NM points out, the airlines may release different availability to different GDS's and to different markets. As I understand it each tool is querying a GDS from the viewpoint of a specific market, so results even if done at exactly the same instant may produce different results. That's why its important to know the native GDS for the airline, as using a tool that queries that GDS will give the most accurate results. Sometimes the market matters too.

Availability is not static of course. Can fluctuate up and down based on all sorts of reasons.
 

Dave Noble

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There is even more than that; Amadeus allows differing availabilities to be offered depending on the region where the request is made. e.g. a call to BA London may offer no D availability on a route whilst BA USA can have D9 even though both are selecting from Amadeus.

When attempting to get availability for an airline operating that way ( not sure if QF makes use of this facility , but BA def does ) try phoning airline offices in different markets such as AU, EU and North America

Dave
 

NM

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KVS is now showing QF51 BNE-SIN 26DEC06 as:

Amedeus:
J9 C9 D9 U0 Y9 B9 H8 K6 M4 L3 V3 S3 N3 Q3 O3 X0

Sabre:
J9 C9 D9 I2 U0 Y9 B9 H8 K6 M4 R3 L3 V3 S3

Apollo (ITN/CWT):
J9 C9 D9 Y9 B9 H8 K6 M4 R3 L3 V3 S3 N3 Q3 O3

WorldSpan (ITN/CWT):
J9 D9 C9 Y9 B9 H8 K6 M4 R3 L3 V3 S3 N3 Q3 O3

So I don't see much conflict in the availability. The different GDS's display different classes (ie Sabre does not show N, Q, O), but the numbers are consistent.
 

serfty

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I have experinced different booking systems getting different availability.

When in the initial stages of booking my DONE4, Expert flyer was showing D0 for QF9 to LHR on the date I wanted in March, D2 the next day & D4 the day before. CX in CMB advised they could only see D0 for all three days. They actually checked with Qantas who advised there were no D seats available for me. (This is at the start of a long weekend in MEL).

My solution was to have a land sement to SYD then go Via QF29; there was plenty of D class. The land segment MEL-SYD I booked during the QF sale in November for ~$85.

Expert Flyer:

QF51 26th December: J9 C9 D9 I2 U0 Y9 B9 H9 K9 M9 R5 L8 V5 S6 N5 Q5 O5 G0 T3 X0 E0
QF52 4th January: J9 C9 D9 I4 U0 Y9 B9 H9 K9 M9 R9 L9 V0 S0 N0 Q0 O0 G0 T0 X0 E0

This tell me there are plenty of seats in J & Y, moreso for QF51 (T3 are award economy for QFF elites).
 

JohnK

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NM said:
KVS is now showing QF51 BNE-SIN 26DEC06 as:
I hope you mean 26DEC05 as my flight is next Monday.

NM said:
Amedeus:
J9 C9 D9 U0 Y9 B9 H8 K6 M4 L3 V3 S3 N3 Q3 O3 X0

Sabre:
J9 C9 D9 I2 U0 Y9 B9 H8 K6 M4 R3 L3 V3 S3

Apollo (ITN/CWT):
J9 C9 D9 Y9 B9 H8 K6 M4 R3 L3 V3 S3 N3 Q3 O3

WorldSpan (ITN/CWT):
J9 D9 C9 Y9 B9 H8 K6 M4 R3 L3 V3 S3 N3 Q3 O3

So I don't see much conflict in the availability. The different GDS's display different classes (ie Sabre does not show N, Q, O), but the numbers are consistent.
I think I should totally give up trying to understand this game. :? Sabre yesterday had V2 and now V3 so somehow seat has been released, yesterday had K4 and now K6 so more seats released. :?

So I will take your word for it and assume that flight is not very full. Thanks for your assistance.
 

NM

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JohnK said:
I hope you mean 26DEC05 as my flight is next Monday.
Yes, I get so confused this time of year :p .
JohnK said:
I think I should totally give up trying to understand this game. :? Sabre yesterday had V2 and now V3 so somehow seat has been released, yesterday had K4 and now K6 so more seats released. :?
Availability does change on a regular basis. Seats are sold, tickets are changed or cancelled, and the airline's revenue management people are constantly reviewing the loadings and moving bucket allocations. This is particularly true during the last week before a flight.
 

JohnK

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NM said:
Yes, I get so confused this time of year :p .
At least you are not confused everyday. :?

NM said:
Availability does change on a regular basis. Seats are sold, tickets are changed or cancelled, and the airline's revenue management people are constantly reviewing the loadings and moving bucket allocations. This is particularly true during the last week before a flight.
Talking about availability changing on a regular basis. Here is what I see through Carlson Wagonlit now for

QF 51 R4 J4 C4 D4 S4 Y7 B7 H4 Q0 M4 N0 K4 L4 V4 O0

QF 52 R4 J4 C4 D4 S0 Y7 B7 H4 Q0 M4 N0 K4 L4 V0 O0

QF 51 shows totally different availability to yesterday.
 

JohnK

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Not sure whether this agrees with the discussion, so far, on seat availability but there was around 10-15 seats available in cattle class on QF51 on Dec 26th. Seat maps suggested a relatively empty flight but must have had a huge a influx of pax towards the end.

Interesting to note that there was also around 10 seats available in business class.
 

serfty

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JohnK said:
Not sure whether this agrees with the discussion, so far, on seat availability but there was around 10-15 seats available in cattle class on QF51 on Dec 26th. Seat maps suggested a relatively empty flight but must have had a huge a influx of pax towards the end.

Interesting to note that there was also around 10 seats available in business class.
Quite often the seat maps will show only the seats that have actually been pre-allocated/blocked. So many seats will show as empty even though the aircraft is actually quite full.
 

JohnK

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serfty said:
Quite often the seat maps will show only the seats that have actually been pre-allocated/blocked. So many seats will show as empty even though the aircraft is actually quite full.
So in theory the seat map is not a very good way to judge the availabiity of seats on a flight.

The check-in people seem to have the same problem as well. For QF52 I had 23B allocated and I asked at check-in to change to an aisle seat where there was an empty seat next to it. I asked 2 times and was told each time that the flight was full. I even just asked for another aisle seat and again was told flight full. The same thing was said just before boarding when I asked again. When I got on the plane it was not full and when I explained the situation to FA she managed to find 37DEF vacant. So I swapped seats.

Are the check-in people that lazy or they really don't have an idea.
 
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