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Scheduled flight departure and arrival times

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JohnK

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I have noticed in an article somewhere that QF and some other airlines boasting a 95%+ success rate for on time departure and arrival times.

Does anyone else feel that these numbers are incorrect? Why are they allowed to report such numbers when clearly this is not the case. Are they using a different formula? Am I exagerrating?

I had 5 flights Monday & Tuesday with 4 different carriers and all were late in taking off and most did not make scheduled arrival time even though they made up some time along the way.

Code:
10 Apr QF SYD-BNE scheduled take-off 10:05 actual take-off 10:16, 11 minutes late
10 Apr QF BNE-SIN scheduled take-off 13:55 actual take-off 14:13, 18 minutes late
10 Apr AY SIN-BKK scheduled take-off 21:50 actual take-off 22:12, 22 minutes late
11 Apr EK BKK-HKG scheduled take-off 13:45 actual take-off 14:37, 52 minutes late
11 Apr CX HKG-BKK scheduled take-off 22:10 actual take-off 22:19, 9 minutes late
I did get inconvenienced in a small way but I am sure that these type of incidents cause other people greater hassles along the way. I know that not all are the fault of the airline but just the same they still occured.
 

oz_mark

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You need to understand what is meant by 'on-time'.

Definitions
A flight arrival is counted as "on time" if it arrived at the gate within 15 minutes of the scheduled arrival time shown in the carriers' schedule. Neither diverted nor cancelled flights count as on time. Similarly, a flight departure is counted as "on time" if it departs the gate within 15 minutes of the scheduled departure time shown in the carriers' schedule
So, by definition, if the times you give are when they left the gate, then two of the flights you give times for left on-time.

Qantas quotes on-time arrival statistics.
 

QF WP

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Both airlines (QF and DJ) report statistics buth the problem is they don't use the same methodology. Therefore, results can be skewed.

Here is QF's latest results and Virgin Blue's.

The Bureau of Transport and Regional Economics outlines the definitions of "on time":

A flight arrival is counted as "on time" if it arrived at the gate within 15 minutes of the scheduled arrival time shown in the carriers' schedule. Neither diverted nor cancelled flights count as on time. Similarly, a flight departure is counted as "on time" if it departs the gate within 15 minutes of the scheduled departure time shown in the carriers' schedule.

A flight is regarded as a cancellation if it is cancelled or rescheduled less than 7 days prior to its scheduled departure time.

On time performance is measured as the number of flights operating on time as a percentage of the number of flights operated on any particular sector. Cancellations are measured as the number of flights cancelled within 7 days of scheduled departure as a percentage of the number of flights scheduled for that particular sector.

The method of capturing on time performance varies between airlines utilising different recording systems. Jetstar and Qantas jet aircraft use Aircraft Communication Addressing and Reporting System (ACARS) to electronically measure on time performance. Virgin Blue, Regional Express, Skywest, Macair, Ozjet and the Qantas non-jet fleet record on time performance manually using records from pilots, gate agents and/or ground crews.
Their latest report on statistics is February 2006

There is a thread on Flyertalk's QF Forum about this, I'll see if I can find it.
 

jakeseven7

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Lindsay Wilson said:
Both airlines (QF and DJ) report statistics buth the problem is they don't use the same methodology. Therefore, results can be skewed.

Here is QF's latest results and Virgin Blue's.

The Bureau of Transport and Regional Economics outlines the definitions of "on time":

A flight arrival is counted as "on time" if it arrived at the gate within 15 minutes of the scheduled arrival time shown in the carriers' schedule. Neither diverted nor cancelled flights count as on time. Similarly, a flight departure is counted as "on time" if it departs the gate within 15 minutes of the scheduled departure time shown in the carriers' schedule.

A flight is regarded as a cancellation if it is cancelled or rescheduled less than 7 days prior to its scheduled departure time.

On time performance is measured as the number of flights operating on time as a percentage of the number of flights operated on any particular sector. Cancellations are measured as the number of flights cancelled within 7 days of scheduled departure as a percentage of the number of flights scheduled for that particular sector.

The method of capturing on time performance varies between airlines utilising different recording systems. Jetstar and Qantas jet aircraft use Aircraft Communication Addressing and Reporting System (ACARS) to electronically measure on time performance. Virgin Blue, Regional Express, Skywest, Macair, Ozjet and the Qantas non-jet fleet record on time performance manually using records from pilots, gate agents and/or ground crews.
Their latest report on statistics is February 2006

There is a thread on Flyertalk's QF Forum about this, I'll see if I can find it.

It is a common complaint in the industry that Virgin especially fudge their numbers
 

jakeseven7

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Lindsay Wilson said:
Let me ask Brett and I'll report back :wink:
Great idea.
And I'm off to ask our PM what really happend with the AWB scandal :roll:
 

NM

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JohnK said:
10 Apr QF SYD-BNE scheduled take-off 10:05 actual take-off 10:16, 11 minutes late
10 Apr QF BNE-SIN scheduled take-off 13:55 actual take-off 14:13, 18 minutes late
10 Apr AY SIN-BKK scheduled take-off 21:50 actual take-off 22:12, 22 minutes late
11 Apr EK BKK-HKG scheduled take-off 13:45 actual take-off 14:37, 52 minutes late
11 Apr CX HKG-BKK scheduled take-off 22:10 actual take-off 22:19, 9 minutes late
Note that the scheduled departure time is not the tale-off time. Departure is measured from when the aircraft leaves the gate. So any taxi and ground holding delay is not included, and a reasonable estimate of the usual ground delays are built into the schedule.

So if your first flight was scheduled for 10:05 departure, I would estimate that a take-off time of 10:16 would mean that it actually pushed back from the gate pretty close to on-time at 10:05.
 

infoworks

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I understand that there is a 15 minute leeway for "on time", and that's the case in the U.S. For Sydney trains it's about the same (and they still run late)!!!
 

Yada Yada

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jakeseven7 said:
It is a common complaint in the industry that Virgin especially fudge their numbers
I'd bet that it's probably QF making the complaints. My experience over the past 2-3 years on SYD-MEL, SYD-BNE and SYD-PER routes is that Virgin Blue is almost always on time (in fact often arriving early) whereas QF are often late departing and arriving.
 

JohnK

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NM said:
Note that the scheduled departure time is not the tale-off time. Departure is measured from when the aircraft leaves the gate. So any taxi and ground holding delay is not included, and a reasonable estimate of the usual ground delays are built into the schedule.

So if your first flight was scheduled for 10:05 departure, I would estimate that a take-off time of 10:16 would mean that it actually pushed back from the gate pretty close to on-time at 10:05.
Thanks NM, oz_mark and others.

The whole caper is absolute hogwash. Taking off 15 minutes later and landing 15 minutes later can really cost you the next departure especially if luggage and immigration is slow.

So according to airline all is OK if pushing back from gate 14 minutes after scheduled departure and then being 13th in line to depart runway at 2 minute intervals is perfect.

I need to check my figures but I think only one flight actually pushed back 2 minutes inside of departure time. I missed the aitrain in BNE by 1 minute and had to wait 29 minutes for the next one.

I know that most times that it is my responsibility to ensure I have enough connection time but at some point the airlines and airport administration need to admit they have a problem, do something to fix it and stop publishing they are perfect.
 

NM

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JohnK said:
The whole caper is absolute hogwash. Taking off 15 minutes later and landing 15 minutes later can really cost you the next departure especially if luggage and immigration is slow.
That is why there is spare time built into MCT at airports. Unless delayed at immigration/customs (hardly the airline's fault), an arrival 15 mins afyer scheduled time will not cause you to misconnect.
JohnK said:
So according to airline all is OK if pushing back from gate 14 minutes after scheduled departure and then being 13th in line to depart runway at 2 minute intervals is perfect.
a long queue of aircraft awaiting departure and delays due to arrival congestion can hardly be blamed on the airline. Their responsibility is to be ready to join the queue by their scheduled time. The line has to be drawn somewhere and that is 15 mins after the scheduled time.
 

JohnK

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NM said:
a long queue of aircraft awaiting departure and delays due to arrival congestion can hardly be blamed on the airline. Their responsibility is to be ready to join the queue by their scheduled time. The line has to be drawn somewhere and that is 15 mins after the scheduled time.
Sorry NM I wasn't trying to have a whinge just disappointed at the facts.

In SIN gate closes 10 minutes early, in HKG gate closes 15 minutes early, in BKK gate closes 20 minutes early. If you miss this time because you are shopping rather than waiting on connecting flight being late then aircraft should not wait for you.

I was sitting on aircraft in BKK when captain announced that we are waiting for 4 pax to board aircraft and as they haven't showed up it will take 15 minutes to offload their baggage. OK no problem but 15 minutes later we have same people board aircraft. Why? They should have been denied boarding? I tell you if it was me the aircraft will not wait for me. Why do people continue to push rules?
 

Kiwi Flyer

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If someone turns up late while they are still searching for bags to offload, airline usually will let them board since this is easiest and quickest solution.

I've had times when waiting for more than an hour after doors shut because it takes a long time to find bags for those pax and then miss slot as well.
 

infoworks

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I often remain amazed at how people can not make the plane. Cases where they were in transit come to mind. Also how often it happens on the shortest segments, like SIN-KUL where the delay time ends up being as long as the actual flight. No making up that time en route!!!
 

Maca44

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Virgin use subcontact personnel at regional airports, and a friend is Manager of such a subcontract firm. They wear Virgin uniforms etc and from memory they have 25 mins from the time the ac 'stops' at the terminal before it has to 'depart'. If the ac is delayed due of something the subcontract does/fails to do then the subcontractor is penalised/fined. If the ac is delayed due to a computer/aircraft fault then its Virgin's problem.

He told me that after the luggage loaded, doors are locked etc and ac is ready to depart he watches for the "wheels" to move and then he notifies his staff in the terminal, who enter it on the computer so Virgin in Sydney are aware of the departure time. Minutes count when you can be fined for delays.
 

Groundfeeder

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I often remain amazed at how people can not make the plane.
I recall with clarity a few years ago departing CNS as we were waiting for a well known QLD politician. They held the plane (hot as hell inside) for about 20 minutes until this creep showed up and took his J seat (of course).

As we taxied out, the FA asked over the PA for Mr Creep to push the call button which he duly did. She then said "Now, could you please write out one hundred times - I MUST NOT BE LATE FOR MY PLANE!!"

Excellent reception from the pax for that one.
 

NM

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Groundfeeder said:
I often remain amazed at how people can not make the plane.
I recall with clarity a few years ago departing CNS as we were waiting for a well known QLD politician. They held the plane (hot as hell inside) for about 20 minutes until this creep showed up and took his J seat (of course).
I have only been late boarding one flight - QF107 SYD-LAX. I had a connection from BNE and they flight was delays by 2.5 hours. So we arrived into SYD domestic at the time the LAX flight was due to depart. There was about 40 people making the connection, so I was not alone and it could not be blamed as my own fault.

In the end Qantas held the LAX flight for us. They ushered us off the domestic flight and onto an awaiting transfer bus, then up through immigration and to the departure gate. No time for a lounge visit that time! That was the fastest domestic-international transfer I have ever done.

The rest of the passengers were all on board and waiting for us to arrive. I was very impressed that my luggage also made the transfer that time.

So it can happen even when you allow plenty of time for the connection. I now make it habit to get at least 1 flight earlier than needed for my connections. I would rather be relaxing in the lounge awaiting a delayed departure than be stressed and rushed during the connection.

The ones I hate are when the passengers are somewhere in the terminal and have been sidetracked at the duty-free shops or the bar and are late getting to the gate.
 

oz_mark

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NM said:
The ones I hate are when the passengers are somewhere in the terminal and have been sidetracked at the duty-free shops or the bar and are late getting to the gate.

I have several times been held up in Canberra while they find a no show, or remove his luggage from the plane (ggod thing on 737's its not in containers). It has always mystified me as there is no duty free to hold you up, you are unlikely to be in transit from somewhere. You check-in then don;t show up. I don;t get it.
 

NM

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oz_mark said:
I have several times been held up in Canberra while they find a no show, or remove his luggage from the plane (ggod thing on 737's its not in containers). It has always mystified me as there is no duty free to hold you up, you are unlikely to be in transit from somewhere. You check-in then don;t show up. I don;t get it.
I have seen many public servants turn up at a conference or seminar and register, then walk out and go somewhere else (golf perhaps??). Get their name marked off and/or collect material to "prove" they attended, and then no-show for the actual session. I wonder if this happen to flights as well?

It is a well known process for people holding seminars in Canberra. You will gets lots of people register, and most of them will turn up and collect their name badge etc, but the room will be empty during the presentation.
 

oz_mark

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NM said:
It is a well known process for people holding seminars in Canberra. You will gets lots of people register, and most of them will turn up and collect their name badge etc, but the room will be empty during the presentation.
While I can neither confirm nor deny that I have done this at conferences, this is still a bit different to no-showing for a flight after checking in.
 
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