Royal Brunei Airlines and LGBTI travellers

[cove]

Was it the Sultan whose brother had the playboy private ship named “cough” before brud disinherited him?

 

[odysseus]

We had the list of estimated costs to fly a plane published here on AFF not so long ago. The figures were quite amazing (really low): The Cost of Operating a Commercial Flight

An A380 SYD-DFW has an average seat cost of $368 to operate. Some people are paying $7000 (one way in F), others $4000 (one way in J). That means the Y seats can be pretty low. (If 7/14 and 30/60 J class pax were on paid fares, the entire economy cabin, even at $1 per seat, would represent profit)

Your terminology isn't right.

The $368 relates to the costs of the specific flight, not including the business operating costs, which were estimated at an extra 65-100% on top of that.

Profit only comes after all business operating expenses are paid, thus there would be no $1 profit in your example. In fact that service would be running at a loss, and if all flights operated at that model, the business would rapidly go bankrupt. Somewhat like Wow Air...

 

[jase05]

It's been drummed into me for years about respecting the culture/customs of another country. By definition then I have to accept stoning to death. It seems to me that what "people" are really saying is accept the customs and culture only if we find it acceptable.

Whilst I disagree with some of their customs and views it would never stop me going there unlessit posed a risk to my safety

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Your terminology isn't right.

The $368 relates to the costs of the specific flight, not including the business operating costs, which were estimated at an extra 65-100% on top of that.

Profit only comes after all business operating expenses are paid, thus there would be no $1 profit in your example. In fact that service would be running at a loss, and if all flights operated at that model, the business would rapidly go bankrupt. Somewhat like Wow Air...

So if you add 65% costs, you still only get to $600 per seat or something. Given F/J/W seats, that still leaves an entire economy cabin which the airline can pretty much sell for as little as it wants. (That’s based on 50% occupancy for all the premium cabins, with the remainder being unsold or going to awards.)

 

[OZDUCK]

I certainly can't claim to be an expert on Brunei and this new round of enforcement may have changed the situation entirely. However, for what it is worth, last month in Brunei I discussed with my wife's cousin what had happened since the initial introduction of Sharia law about 4 years ago. The answer was - basically nothing. He, a Catholic, said there was a bit of a fuss made initially and someone complained about his married daughter wearing shorts once but nothing came of it and everything settled down and it seemed to be a law that existed for show.

Of course this latest kerfuffle may be an attempt by the Sultan and his advisers to strictly enforce those laws.

 

[ermen]

not sure why the sultan is taking such a draconian step.

unless there is a significant minority in his country that want such laws (think situation in Aceh).

they are not even a parliamentary democracy - he's probably doing this to shore up his popular support in what is a conservative muslim malay society

 

[OZDUCK]

not sure why the sultan is taking such a draconian step.

unless there is a significant minority in his country that want such laws (think situation in Aceh).

they are not even a parliamentary democracy - he's probably doing this to shore up his popular support in what is a conservative muslim malay society

I never heard any 'mutterings' against the Sultan among the people we met in fact very much the contrary - obviously we weren't trying to find a subversive group.

On the other hand, there were certainly concerns expressed about the future financial security of the country with the drop in oil prices over the last few years. A few people seemed to think the government had over-committed itself with some unnecessary projects. They were also concerned, like a lot of S.E. Asia, about some 'Chinese projects' (including a new refinery I think) that seemed to have no rational financial basis.

Perhaps there is an attempt being made to cosy up to the Saudi's or others for possible financial help?

Edit: As an example of belt-tightening, only every second road light was operating on the motorway/freeway and I was told it was a cost cutting measure.

 

[theblank]

Personally I wouldnt be giving any money to a business or country that practices Sharia law so will be avoiding this airline & country..

Qantas probably deserves to be boycotted as well considering their primary partner airline is state owned by a country where homosexuality is criminally illegal.

No gay person will ever be prosecuted by visiting Brunei under these laws just because they are guy, but it would be wise for them not to wave around rainbow flags while they are there. Nor would a lady dare topless sunback in Dubai, or give a Buddha statue the finger. There are lots of things people shouldnt do in other countries.

 

[JohnK]

As the LGBTI addendum to the SmartTraveller website says - read the warnings and make your OWN decisions...

The same can be said for travel to most countries.

Personally I have no desire to visit lots of countries as I don't agree with how those countries are run. I normally wouldn't rule out a transit in those countries and Brunei is one of them. I've looked at airfares and schedules quite a few times but they don't suit my travel.

 

[amaroo]

You can add Malaysia to a very long list. Their current PM locked up his deputy for sodomy .... three times.

 

[cvmceg]

Qantas probably deserves to be boycotted as well considering their primary partner airline is state owned by a country where homosexuality is criminally illegal.

No gay person will ever be prosecuted by visiting Brunei under these laws just because they are guy, but it would be wise for them not to wave around rainbow flags while they are there. Nor would a lady dare topless sunback in Dubai, or give a Buddha statue the finger. There are lots of things people shouldnt do in other countries.

Doesn't mean you can't criticise these countries...

 

[joeymelb]

Doesn't mean you can't criticise these countries...

Careful, you could be accused of Racist, Islamophobic, Homophobic and all the nasty names from the fun police or politically correct class. Can't be too careful these days

I should also point out that in Singaporean Criminal Law Section 377A still makes Same Sex activities illegal and still being enforced (rarely these days). Are we all going to boycott Singapore Airlines and its partners like Virgin Australia?

 

[Buzzard]

With all these places to boycott I think I'll just stay home.

 

[Berlin]

Without wanting to defend the Dubai government, any and all travel advice about Dubai suggests restraint from public displays of affection when there - including kissing and holding hands - whether two men, two women or man and woman. There are numerous reports of couples being arrested for such behaviour.

For me as a gay man, that actually feels better. At least ALL public pashing and so on is frowned upon. It also sometimes makes it easier to share the same room or even have dinner together if you're a gay couple as they just assume you're relatives which I always find ironic.

Saying all that, I certainly don't like it. My partner and I have avoided many a stopover in the Middle East before we prefer staying at a hotel where we can hold hands, like every straight couple around us, when watching the sunset from the pool. But for a quick stopover- meh.

 

[bPeteb]

...avoid committing sodomy during their time on board the plane and during the transit in Brunei. And boycott the airline/country in the future.

I hope the use of the term 'committing sodomy' is tongue in cheek or as a reference to sharia law. Glad you finished with the last sentence dajop but I'm offended by the use of the term if not being used sarcastically.

I agree with the sentiments of observing the laws of the country you are visiting. But, I also find it abhorrent that this kind of law is being enacted in 2019.

The Sultan's sister, and her humungous entourage, used to stay at the Hyatt at Sanctuary Cove when it first opened. Huge tippers, and no removal of alcohol from the rooms and suites.

 

[dajop]

I hope the use of the term 'committing sodomy' is tongue in cheek or as a reference to sharia law. Glad you finished with the last sentence dajop but I'm offended by the use of the term if not being used sarcastically.

I am not using it sarcastically at all. The point is if I found myself booked on Royal Brunei, like the couple in the original article, I would not be scared about the law itself, as I would not be planning on breaking the law (this is different to boycotting etc).

The actual term used in the Brunei laws is Liwat. If you delve into it, many places that have laws against homosexuality, it is the act of sodomy* that is forbidden not the state of being gay. Of course though a)I imagine those wanting to enforce the law will look closer at those who identify as gay for transgressions and b) people are subject to indecency laws as well, and actions such as kissing in public most definitely could attract severe penalties - although it seems not stoning to death.


Bottom line best to avoid both this and if heterosexual, sex outside marriage, when in Brunei, on their planes and in countries with similar laws.

* nb I’ve read references to both the narrow definition of this term and a broader definition that also includes, for example the mouth.

 

[Alyopsis]

Royal Brunei Airlines and the following hotels are either owned by the Brunei government directly or via the Brunei government's sovereign wealth fund.

The Dorchester, London
45 Park Lane, London
Coworth Park, UK
The Beverly Hills Hotel, Beverly Hills
Hotel Bel-Air, Los Angeles
Le Meurice, Paris
Hotel Plaza Athenee, Paris
Hotel Eden, Rome
Hotel Principe di Savoia, Mi

Here's a good reason not to give them your money : Stoning, whipping and amputations: Brunei enacts Asia's harshest penalties for LGBT people

Just saying ....

 

[Denali]

Its tough getting a social conscious - I never use to care much but now I have to start paying better attention to things so adding hotels to the list.

I know my itty bitty few Ks dont mean much to their bank account but if enough people care it can make a difference.

 

[mannej]

Being discussed here

 

[offshore171]

Same. I don’t think it’s asking too much to respect the laws and customs of another country despite what your beliefs are.

That logic breaks down at a certain point. For example, Apartheid was once law in South Africa and I don't respect that.