Rewards flight downgraded with no refund?

[shedboy]

Thanks folks. I looked at Classic Rewards originally as that was how I booked, but at less than 3 months out, unsurprisingly there wasn't anything. Looks like I'll just have to shoot for the refund.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Thanks folks. I looked at Classic Rewards originally as that was how I booked, but at less than 3 months out, unsurprisingly there wasn't anything. Looks like I'll just have to shoot for the refund.

I would try calling Qantas first for other options. Not all options show on the QF booking site and sometimes you have to be a bit creative. MEL-JFK comes back as a 'zero' result but if you use the multi city tool there are actually plenty of seats MEL-SIN on Qantas connecting to SIN-JFK on Emirates. But of course the QF site doesn't want you booking those so easily A good agent at the call centre can look at all the options for you.

Edited: see also dajop's comments below.... your fare may already be cheaper if it has been contructed as two segments F/J.

 

[dajop]

You should also be able to add the ADL-PER/SYD/MEL/BNE sector for no additional charge in points, because you have paid the full going rate.

Would be arguing the involuntary route change and try getting it for no extra points. If rerouting via MEL/SYD/BNE in theory may come with extra points charge, as ADL-DXB is in different zone to MEL/SYD/BNE-DXB the points required are different. ADL-DXB(F) = 126K + DXB-STN(J)=50k. Total 176k. ADL-MEL-DXB-STN should be all in zone 10 F even if some sectors in J @ 192K.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Would be arguing the involuntary route change and try getting it for no extra points. If rerouting via MEL/SYD/BNE in theory may come with extra points charge, as ADL-DXB is in different zone to MEL/SYD/BNE-DXB the points required are different. ADL-DXB(F) = 126K + DXB-STN(J)=50k. Total 176k. ADL-MEL-DXB-STN should be all in zone 10 F even if some sectors in J @ 192K.

Good point. The fare should be broken in DXB because it is cheaper to add the two segments for mixed class.

 

[shedboy]

Thanks again. Unfortunately I've already spoken to 5 people at Qantas & sent 3 emails, and no-one has had a clue how to deal with my case. They've literally all tried to palm me off to someone else, or have just ignored my emails. That's been my entire problem. As far as I can tell, there's is no-one competent at QFF & they really don't give a cough. If I can even get a refund that'll be a major win. As I said you've all been a huge help. I started the day feeling powerless & like I've been fleeced by a big corporation, but you've reassured me that I do have case and will keep pushing until I get some response. I'm not ruling out legal options, but I seriously can't believe they'd be willing to make me go that far. Not the most enjoyable entry into the world of reward flights.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Thanks again. Unfortunately I've already spoken to 5 people at Qantas & sent 3 emails, and no-one has had a clue how to deal with my case. They've literally all tried to palm me off to someone else, or have just ignored my emails. That's been my entire problem. As far as I can tell, there's is no-one competent at QFF & they really don't give a ****. If I can even get a refund that'll be a major win. As I said you've all been a huge help. I started the day feeling lost & completely like I've been fleeced by a big corporation, but you've reassured me that I do have case and will keep pushing until I get some response. I'm not ruling out legal options, but I seriously can't believe they'd be willing to make me go that far. Not the most enjoyable entry into the world of reward flights.

I have to admit this seems to be a lot more difficult that it should be. I don't know whether that's down to some particular issue with your booking, or something more general.

Usually QFFF staff are pretty good at sorting this stuff out. There are a few rookies in the general call centre, but anything more complex can usually be escalated if need be.

In your case it's very straightforward. If you haven't already you need to ask the call centre to retrieve your booking, using the booking reference. Tell them the flight ADL-DXB was book in F and is not downgraded to J. You want a refund of the points.

That should be the end of it. Unless something else has happened. Did you accept the revised schedule on line when it was in your booking? If that's the case, maybe the call centre only sees a business class booking now (rather than F) and might be wondering what all the fuss is about.

You need to make it clear that you paid F, and the miles have not been refunded.

I had a similar class downgrade previously where the operating airline reaccommodated me in the lower cabin automatically. The call centre didn't even know the ticket hasd been downgraded when I called them until they did a bit of digging!

 

[shedboy]

Yeah. Thanks. I thought it should be straight forward too and can't believe how hard they're making it. I wasn't given any option to accept the change online. It just was. They changed another flight in the booking & they gave me an option to accept it there, but this one just happened with no consent asked for or given. So maybe there is something weird in the booking as you say.

 

[juddles]

As per the previous advice here, ask them for a re-routing - in general airlines are much more amenable to this than refunds.

Also, as you have probably realized during the course of this experience (and the info given here to you), it is much easier to argue when you yourself feel secure in your own knowledge - so read up well on the advice given here. (Many of the AFF members know much more than half the staff at Qantas )

At the end of the day, I hope you get some sort of resolution. Just don't let this detail detract too much from your trip. I understand that it is a special one, earned after many years and is a celebration of a major personal goal-reaching. Taking it as such in that sense, even a trip in business (J) is still a very fun way to travel - so enjoy!

 

[shedboy]

Thanks for the good vibes @juddles. Everyone here has been most helpful. I only found this site after I'd pored over as many ACCC & Consumer Affairs statements as I could & was fruitlessly trying to find precedent cases and rulings before I could figure my way forward. I really have so, so many better things to be doing with my time.

I've also been hesitant to complain as I had thought the QFF response would be 'Shutup & go away peasant. You're already getting a free Business Class trip to Europe. Suck it up.' And that's certainly how it's been feeling. I do understand I'm being a 1st-world, privileged whinger too and know Business Class is going to be great. I still feel like I've paid for something and was just being dismissed by a giant corporation who appeared to be getting away with charging me for something they weren't giving me, even if it was only loyalty points & an unknown amount from my carrier fee. It's very, very low on the social justice totem pole, but it still is the kind of thing that sticks in my craw. Given that it appears they can just change my flights without my consent or any penalty, I'm still a bit scared that they'll cancel or shift something else around without any compensation. That's actually been causing me a bit of stress as I'm not convinced they won't try & pull something else like that. How can you book a holiday if you're not sure your flights will be honoured? I think that's probably my Aspy paranoia though. Change the rules on me and I'm utterly lost.

I'm really looking forward to this being sorted so I can stop worrying and focus on the actual holiday. Hoping to see the Northern Lights in Norway as part of it so it should be brilliant if everything aligns.

And next up I have to keep chasing another airline who accepted my bid for two empty seats next to me on a long haul back from JFK the week before last, but didn't honour it and are not yet willing to refund my bid. Given this thread, I'll switch from email to phone calls on that one too. Definitely not a fan of airlines at the moment though.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

As per the previous advice here, ask them for a re-routing - in general airlines are much more amenable to this than refunds.

I'd generally agree, but in this case where points are involved, and it's a very easy calculation, the points would actually be easier to refund than re-routing.

Something must have happened to this booking if the agents can't immediately see the issue.

The OP is entitled to a refund under contract and consumer law. Exactly why the agents can't get to the bottom of this is the puzzle.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Thanks for the good vibes @juddles. Everyone here has been most helpful. I only found this site after I'd pored over as many ACCC & Consumer Affairs statements as I could & was fruitlessly trying to find precedent cases and rulings before I could figure my way forward. I really have so, so many better things to be doing with my time.

I've also been hesitant to complain as I had thought the QFF response would be 'Shutup & go away peasant. You're already getting a free Business Class trip to Europe. Suck it up.' And that's certainly how it's been feeling. I do understand I'm being a 1st-world, privileged whinger too and know Business Class is going to be great. I still feel like I've paid for something and was just being dismissed by a giant corporation who appeared to be getting away with charging me for something they weren't giving me, even if it was only loyalty points & an unknown amount from my carrier fee. It's very, very low on the social justice totem pole, but it still is the kind of thing that sticks in my craw. Given that it appears they can just change my flights without my consent or any penalty, I'm still a bit scared that they'll cancel or shift something else around without any compensation. That's actually been causing me a bit of stress as I'm not convinced they won't try & pull something else like that. How can you book a holiday if you're not sure your flights will be honoured? I think that's probably my Aspy paranoia though. Change the rules on me and I'm utterly lost.

I'm really looking forward to this being sorted so I can stop worrying and focus on the actual holiday. Hoping to see the Northern Lights in Norway as part of it so it should be brilliant if everything aligns.

And next up I have to keep chasing another airline who accepted my bid for two empty seats next to me on a long haul back from JFK the week before last, but didn't honour it and are not yet willing to refund my bid. Given this thread, I'll switch from email to phone calls on that one too. Definitely not a fan of airlines at the moment though.

As far as QF is concerned you don't really have anything to be concerned about. They're not out to 'get you' or to dismiss you. It sounds like something has gone wrong and they can't see the issue. Also worth considering that (a) it's in their interest to refund you the points otherwise they can get in trouble from the ACCC, and (b) the points aren't coming out of the agents' pockets, and your points refund is tiny in the grand scheme of things. They won't be hitting (or missing) any targets by trying to stop you getting your points back

They won't cancel or change anything else, nothing to worry about there. As for them changing 'without your consent' - this is actually a good thing. When changes occur aitlines proactively reaccommodate you. Otherwise could you image tunring up on the day of travel to find you had nothing? Now, what they reacommodate you on may not be the best (in this case business class), but that's where as a passenger you need to keep an eye on things and proactively engage to get something better.

How can you book a holiday and ensure your flights will be honoured? Pick an airline that has multiple and frequent flights. All airlines suffer from delays and cancellations. But not all airlines offer the frequency to get you back on track as quickly as you'd like. Jetstar, Qantas and Virgin have one flight a day on many international routes and you'll have to wait 24 hours before their next flight. Singapore Ailrines and Cathay have four or five flights a day. So you only need to wait 6 hours before getting under way. Unfortunately we don't have government mandated compensation to incentivise our our airlines to fly you as planned or to in the class you booked.

Was your 'two empty seat' bid with Etihad? The terms and conditions state that you are entitled to a full refund in the event you dont get your seats, and the refund should take 10-15 days. I'd give them a few more days and chase it up by email.

 

[Flying mermaid]

Thanks for the good vibes @juddles. Everyone here has been most helpful. I only found this site after I'd pored over as many ACCC & Consumer Affairs statements as I could & was fruitlessly trying to find precedent cases and rulings before I could figure my way forward. I really have so, so many better things to be doing with my time.

I've also been hesitant to complain as I had thought the QFF response would be 'Shutup & go away peasant. You're already getting a free Business Class trip to Europe. Suck it up.' And that's certainly how it's been feeling. I do understand I'm being a 1st-world, privileged whinger too and know Business Class is going to be great. I still feel like I've paid for something and was just being dismissed by a giant corporation who appeared to be getting away with charging me for something they weren't giving me, even if it was only loyalty points & an unknown amount from my carrier fee. It's very, very low on the social justice totem pole, but it still is the kind of thing that sticks in my craw. Given that it appears they can just change my flights without my consent or any penalty, I'm still a bit scared that they'll cancel or shift something else around without any compensation. That's actually been causing me a bit of stress as I'm not convinced they won't try & pull something else like that. How can you book a holiday if you're not sure your flights will be honoured? I think that's probably my Aspy paranoia though. Change the rules on me and I'm utterly lost.

I'm really looking forward to this being sorted so I can stop worrying and focus on the actual holiday. Hoping to see the Northern Lights in Norway as part of it so it should be brilliant if everything aligns.

And next up I have to keep chasing another airline who accepted my bid for two empty seats next to me on a long haul back from JFK the week before last, but didn't honour it and are not yet willing to refund my bid. Given this thread, I'll switch from email to phone calls on that one too. Definitely not a fan of airlines at the moment though.

First you have to accept that airlines flying out of/in Aus and NZ can pretty much do what they like. Having said that, please don’t get paranoid that they might change your other flights if you complain - they are really not going to do that. It’s actually not all that often that flights get changed like this, but it does happen and it’s just bad luck it happened to you this time.

I was pretty cranky in January when they did a sub of their absolute oldest falling to pieces 747 on the morning that we flew to Santiago. We still kept Business, but honestly what a heap of junk to fly in - the entertainment system wasn’t even working properly. However you learn to suck it up the more you fly. At least we got to our destination with not too much of a delay.

If you had known more when it happened, you could have asked for a change, but it’s not too late to try - just try and be very very clear. Explain that you were down graded because of an equipment change and you want to explore other options to try and retain first. See what they can do for you. If they say there aren’t other options available, then ask for a refund of points.

 

[shedboy]

First you have to accept that airlines flying out of/in Aus and NZ can pretty much do what they like.

Yes exactly. My previous life was as a musician. When you fly you agree to the airlines' terms of carriage, which no-one reads, but they are effectively 'We can smash your instruments and you can't legally do anything about it'. They have passengers over a barrel, as the argument is that if you don't like it, you don't have to agree to the terms, but then you can't fly. I've never personally had any catastrophic damage to mine, but know others who have and our own personal insurance policies are vital. That's the mindset I came into this issue expecting. Waging nasty PR wars was historically the only way to get any recompense although in recent years, the airlines have become much more helpful to musicians.

That's also encouraging to hear that Qantas likely won't change any further flights.

And I didn't want to name the other 'two-seat' airline as they may yet come good, but you may possibly be on the money there @MEL_Traveller.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

No harm in naming the airline here The only carrier that springs to mind for bidding on two seats in Etihad... at least from New York. Air asia also allows it.

Actually airline terms and conditions aren’t as concrete as they would like us to believe. They are governed by Aussie consumer law, and they can’t contract out of certain things like negligence (ie if one of their staff is negligent in damaging your instrument, the airline can’t hide behind its terms and conditions). additional insurance is always a good idea though.

 

[serfty]

Actually airline terms and conditions aren’t as concrete as they would like us to believe. They are governed by Aussie consumer law, and they can’t contract out of certain things

True .... see here:

Tiger Airways Loses VCAT case - T&C's breach Australia Consumer Law (breach own T&C's also)

Cases in Tribunals or Courts can be overturned on appeal, and may later be distinguished by other justices/judges/Tribunal members if the facts differ. This case from 2017 and 2018 where a Mr Wells (flying from CNS to MEL) successfully obtained compensation through Victoria's VCAT against...

www.australianfrequentflyer.com.au

 

[Daver6]

Why can't QF just put the OP on QF metal to London and release the needed seat in F from say to to LHR?

 

[Flying mermaid]

Why can't QF just put the OP on QF metal to London and release the needed seat in F from say to to LHR?

These are the options he needs to explore - so far he hasn’t asked for that sort of option, only refund of points.

 

[shedboy]

These are the options he needs to explore - so far he hasn’t asked for that sort of option, only refund of points.

Thanks again for the input folks. Again, I'm a noob at this & didn't realise alternate flights were possible.

I had (incorrectly) assumed that my being bumped was due to Qantas or Emirates finding a paying customer & opting for profit instead of honouring my ticket. As a consequence I had assumed that meant there were no more first class seats. Hearing about the plane change gave me a different perspective. In my last email (sent before I found this site) I have in fact requested my first class seat be reinstated, however I can see this may not be possible on the existing flight. I will push for an alternate route as I have paid for a first class seat and do not currently have one. The Qantas Customer Care auto-response promises a reply in up to 14 business days (i.e. 2-3 weeks). I will not give them this long and will be bothering them again by next weekend, assuming my email is not returned. Waiting for a email response has been a previous mistake I won't repeat. However, I did specify emails only and no phone calls in case I have to lawyer up, as I want an admissible paper trail. I have also cut and pasted my emails into separate documents so I have a record of what was said, as the online contact form doesn't provide you with your text after sending. I haven't pursued this as aggressively as I could but am irritatingly stubborn over the long term. It should be a simple matter to my mind, but they are making it not to be so.

I have had no luck finding anyone competent in either Qantas Reservations or Frequent Flyers. One person on Saturday offered that I hadn't been refunded because they hadn't figured out how many points it would be yet. When I mentioned it had already been 6 months he became quite confused, and suggested I speak to someone else in whichever section he wasn't in and transferred me on. I think he was in Reservations and he was the best I've found, as he at least tried being helpful before transferring me. Next time I will ask to speak to someone more senior from the get go.

 

[Flying mermaid]

Thanks again for the input folks. Again, I'm a noob at this & didn't realise alternate flights were possible.

I had (incorrectly) assumed that my being bumped was due to Qantas or Emirates finding a paying customer & opting for profit instead of honouring my ticket. As a consequence I had assumed that meant there were no more first class seats. Hearing about the plane change gave me a different perspective. In my last email (sent before I found this site) I have in fact requested my first class seat be reinstated, however I can see this may not be possible on the existing flight. I will push for an alternate route as I have paid for a first class seat and do not currently have one. The Qantas Customer Care auto-response promises a reply in up to 14 business days (i.e. 2-3 weeks). I will not give them this long and will be bothering them again by next weekend, assuming my email is not returned. Waiting for a email response has been a previous mistake I won't repeat. However, I did specify emails only and no phone calls in case I have to lawyer up, as I want an admissible paper trail. I have also cut and pasted my emails into separate documents so I have a record of what was said, as the online contact form doesn't provide you with your text after sending. I haven't pursued this as aggressively as I could but am irritatingly stubborn over the long term. It should be a simple matter to my mind, but they are making it not to be so.

I have had no luck finding anyone competent in either Qantas Reservations or Frequent Flyers. One person on Saturday offered that I hadn't been refunded because they hadn't figured out how many points it would be yet. When I mentioned it had already been 6 months he became quite confused, and suggested I speak to someone else in whichever section he wasn't in and transferred me on. I think he was in Reservations and he was the best I've found, as he at least tried being helpful before transferring me. Next time I will ask to speak to someone more senior from the get go.

i try to avoid phones, mainly because I hate them, but for something like trying to get a First seat, I really think you need to phone. Also if you are not happy with the response you are getting, don’t be afraid to hang up and try and get someone different.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

i agree with flying mermaid. Every minute you wait your options for finding the last remaining F seats on other flights is disappearing. Waiting for days for an email response is making things very difficult for yourself.

You are also in error thinking this is ever going to need a lawyer. It won’t. This is not that type of legal issue. At worst, you are entitled to a refund and you’ll get one. At best, QF will be able to find you another seat on another route.

As I suspected earlier, something unusual has affected how this booking is being handled. If you have been demanding your F seat reinstated in a plane that no longer has F, you’re possibly already behind the eight ball. Customer services may already have flagged your account that there is ‘nothing more we can do’ (they can’t give an F seat on a plane that doesn’t have one).

It unfortunate you didn’t find AFF when this issue first cropped up 6 months ago. It’s also unfortunate Qantas didn’t give you a proper explanation of why you lost your F seat, and that you have other options. You would have had a pretty good chance of other routes that long ago.