QP members diverted from LAX TBIT Lounge until upgrade Complete - "Next Year"

[Sojourner]

Re: QP Members Barred from LAX TBIT Lounge until upgrade Completed - Sometime "Next Y

QF has been generous enough to allow QP Members access to the largest lounge in the airport (The Gate Lounge) as well as providing a wide selection of food and beverages (via the USD50 voucher)

I would NOT call this generous. Putting someone though the indignity of denying them access when they have paid for it and giving them a voucher and directing them to another lounge is not generosity, it's just a small way of trying to make up for incompetence.

They promoted the new QF lounge like crazy, then after people booked their flights, they denied them access to what was promised in their advertisements because someone couldn't count the average number of people that would be using the lounge.

 

[texter]

Re: QP Members Barred from LAX TBIT Lounge until upgrade Completed - Sometime "Next Y

the lounge should theoretically 'empty' for boarding at 2115 (for BA) and 2135 (for QF). Arrival at the lounge at 2136 seems optimal

Maybe they should give you a buzzer (just like queuing for a shower at LAX) to let you know when it is your turn in the lounge?

Seriously - can anyone report whether they were initially refused entry but tried successfully later on after 2130?

 

[opusman]

Re: QP Members Barred from LAX TBIT Lounge until upgrade Completed - Sometime "Next Y

I would NOT call this generous.

I suspect moa999 was being sarcastic.

 

[Dazz70]

Re: QP Members Barred from LAX TBIT Lounge until upgrade Completed - Sometime "Next Y

On 10/7/14 I was denied entry at 1915 at check in. Tried again at 2300 as QF16 was delayed until 0035 and was denied I again. I was told no Qantas Club members were able to access the lounge at all that night.

 

[Edge]

Re: QP Members Barred from LAX TBIT Lounge until upgrade Completed - Sometime "Ne...

QP members unfortunately are always the first to get screwed.

I flew to Fiji for Easter and even though booked on a QF flight number everyone gets access to the lounge at Nadi except for QP members. QF Plat, Gold, One World Elites, even EK status pax get access but not the people that actually forked out for lounge access.

 

[cmon0005]

Re: QP Members Barred from LAX TBIT Lounge until upgrade Completed - Sometime "Ne...

I flew to Fiji for Easter and even though booked on a QF flight number everyone gets access to the lounge at Nadi except for QP members. QF Plat, Gold, One World Elites, even EK status pax get access but not the people that actually forked out for lounge access.

To be fair if I remember correctly QP members have never had access to the FJ Nadi lounge anyway even on a QF flight number. Only access to Qantas lounge when departing Aust when on a QF flight number. However FJ do offer pay per access to their Nadi lounge, but it is a pretty small and poor lounge, with the most basic of food and drink offerings. (Think Alice Springs Qantas Club lounge but smaller and worse).

 

[Edge]

Re: QP Members Barred from LAX TBIT Lounge until upgrade Completed - Sometime "Ne...

To be fair if I remember correctly QP members have never had access to the FJ Nadi lounge anyway even on a QF flight number. Only access to Qantas lounge when departing Aust when on a QF flight number. However FJ do offer pay per access to their Nadi lounge, but it is a pretty small and poor lounge, with the most basic of food and drink offerings. (Think Alice Springs Qantas Club lounge but smaller and worse).

I'm not saying QP ever had access there, I just think it's very "up yours" when essentially access is granted to "everyone except QP members". I don't think Fiji Airways is a Oneworld member? And it's 46% owned by QF, and you can take a QF flight number..

The LAX situation is definitely worse because you're flying on QF metal, but still. I had good use out of my QP membership for 12 months but you need to fly quite a lot to get value out of it.

 

[waynemerry]

Re: QP Members Barred from LAX TBIT Lounge until upgrade Completed - Sometime "Ne...

Perhaps I'm going against the grain here, but I don't think that this situation is the abomination that is being made out.

The old TBIT OW lounge was too small, was not well lit, etc. I never went in the F lounge, but the J lounge was a zoo in the mid evenings.

So, they respond to this by upgrading the lounge. First they build part of the new lounge using expansion space, and the part that is now open is at least as big as the old lounges. Then they rebuild the old lounge into half the new F lounge and half expansion of the new J lounge.

They got caught out by increased use of the lounge during the intermediate stage when part of the new lounge is open but they are now reconfiguring the space used by the old lounge. And not everyone is going to fit during this stage, so someone has to be picked to go.

I'm QP PS, so I'm in the group that has effectively got picked. I've not been to TBIT since late May, so I've not seen with my own eyes what is happening, but as I understand it, you either get to go to another lounge or you get a $50 voucher (do you get both?). Look it's not great, but what could Qantas otherwise do. It would not have made sense to make the part open lounge even bigger, which means that the finished lounges would have been even larger than what is planned - already it's a doubling in size or more. I think we need to be realistic about these things - the popularity of the lounge has caught Qantas out. In a way, it's a good thing and shows that at least the LAX routes are doing well.

Could Qantas have picked another group - it really does not make sense - Imagine if they picked the SG - OW rules require that they be let in. SG who are on suspended QP could say - we paid for QP, how are we not let in while the QP PS or NB get in? And the number of WP or WP1s are going to be less and are of more value to QF anyway.

So, we end up in our current situation. It's not great, but at least its not the end of the world.

 

[Anna]

Re: QP Members Barred from LAX TBIT Lounge until upgrade Completed - Sometime "Ne...

So, we end up in our current situation. It's not great, but at least its not the end of the world.

True, but IMO QF made it all so much worse by the huge fanfare accompanying the opening of the new lounge. They would have been much better to hold off until the place was finished and big enough for everyone who actually wants to use it. They went in too early with the marketing blurb and as a result they are copping a much bigger backlash than if they had kept quiet until it was all finished.

 

[medhead]

Re: QP Members Barred from LAX TBIT Lounge until upgrade Completed - Sometime "Next Y

QF could've restricted guests, a possibility that is specifically mentioned in the terms and conditions. Instead they are using the 'quiet enjoyment' catch all clause.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Re: QP Members Barred from LAX TBIT Lounge until upgrade Completed - Sometime "Next Y

QF could've restricted guests, a possibility that is specifically mentioned in the terms and conditions. Instead they are using the 'quiet enjoyment' catch all clause.

Qantas cannot use cl10.6 to exclude passengers on the basis of overcrowding.

10.6 refers to a member who might breach the terms and conditions, or in any other way act to disrupt the lounge, its staff, or fellow passengers.

10.6 Qantas Club staff have the discretion to refuse entry to any Member or guest at any time if, in their reasonable opinion, the Member has not or will not comply with these Terms and Conditions or the Club Rules, or the refusal is necessary or convenient for the orderly operation of the lounge or other facilities or the safety or comfort of other Members, their guests and staff.

 

[moa999]

Re: QP Members Barred from LAX TBIT Lounge until upgrade Completed - Sometime "Next Y

overcrowding = safety and comfort of other Members.
hence cl10.6 can be used.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Re: QP Members Barred from LAX TBIT Lounge until upgrade Completed - Sometime "Next Y

overcrowding = safety and comfort of other Members.
hence cl10.6 can be used.

yes, agreed, but the wording of clause 10.6 refers to individual members, not a class of members. A member arriving at 2136 when the lounge has emptied out is not going to be causing overcrowding.

The clause is designed on its reading to perhaps exclude someone who (for example) may appear intoxicated.

Has Qantas breached the terms and conditions generally? I don't know. They have made alternative arrangements which would appear to satisfy the entitlement of a member to enter a lounge, just perhaps not the lounge the member was hoping for.

 

[opusman]

Re: QP Members Barred from LAX TBIT Lounge until upgrade Completed - Sometime "Next Y

Whereas the actual over-crowding clause is too specific to let them exclude QP members, 10.6 is general enough to allow the lounge staff to exclude anyone without any real reason.

 

[medhead]

Re: QP Members Barred from LAX TBIT Lounge until upgrade Completed - Sometime "Next Y

Qantas cannot use cl10.6 to exclude passengers on the basis of overcrowding.

10.6 refers to a member who might breach the terms and conditions, or in any other way act to disrupt the lounge, its staff, or fellow passengers.

overcrowding = safety and comfort of other Members.
hence cl10.6 can be used.

As per my post they don't seem to be using overcrowding. They are using the equivalent of the quiet enjoyment clause in a rental agreement. Safety and comfort is a moving feast. Whereas guest is clear.

 

[harvyk]

Re: QP Members Barred from LAX TBIT Lounge until upgrade Completed - Sometime "Next Y

or the refusal is necessary or convenient for the orderly operation of the lounge or other facilities

Now there is weasel words if ever I've seen them.

I don't think it's a case of if it's a breach of contract to disallow people into the lounge, since they have placed lovely little clauses in to protect themselves, and all in all the QP product still provides lounge access at most QF metal serviced ports so they are not in breach of misleading advertising laws.

However as much of anything else, this is not a question of legalities, this is a question of innocent or guilty in the court of public opinion. Yes they have the weasel words which effectively let them bar access at will, but in business I tend to have a mantra, if you need to refer to / use the terms and conditions, something has gone wrong.

The answer for QF is simple. Cut the absolute marketing BS. Us loyal customers are smart enough to work out that the latest “Enhancement” is actually a big negative for us, don’t pretend otherwise. You’d have no doubt known that the TBIT lounge was likely going to be at capacity (hell, you’re able to determine 6 months out that MEL needs another MEL-LAX service at the end of the year, why not use that same crystal ball when determining lounge loadings), why play the “head in the sand” game when releasing marketing materials?
So QF, remember the next time you want to roll out a big marketing campaign and then fall back onto legalities to get you out of a screw up. Legally you might be in the right, but legally I’m not forced to fly you. The court of public opinion is far less likely to let legal trickery slide.

(PS. Yes I realize this is another QF rant, I guess QF can take some consolidation in the fact I’m ranting like this, it means I’m still willing to fly them. The day they have to be worried about is the day I decide ranting like this is no longer worth it)

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Re: QP Members Barred from LAX TBIT Lounge until upgrade Completed - Sometime "Next Y

Now there is weasel words if ever I've seen them.

I don't think it's a case of if it's a breach of contract to disallow people into the lounge, since they have placed lovely little clauses in to protect themselves, and all in all the QP product still provides lounge access at most QF metal serviced ports so they are not in breach of misleading advertising laws.

However as much of anything else, this is not a question of legalities, this is a question of innocent or guilty in the court of public opinion. Yes they have the weasel words which effectively let them bar access at will, but in business I tend to have a mantra, if you need to refer to / use the terms and conditions, something has gone wrong.

The answer for QF is simple. Cut the absolute marketing BS. Us loyal customers are smart enough to work out that the latest “Enhancement” is actually a big negative for us, don’t pretend otherwise. You’d have no doubt known that the TBIT lounge was likely going to be at capacity (hell, you’re able to determine 6 months out that MEL needs another MEL-LAX service at the end of the year, why not use that same crystal ball when determining lounge loadings), why play the “head in the sand” game when releasing marketing materials?
So QF, remember the next time you want to roll out a big marketing campaign and then fall back onto legalities to get you out of a screw up. Legally you might be in the right, but legally I’m not forced to fly you. The court of public opinion is far less likely to let legal trickery slide.

(PS. Yes I realize this is another QF rant, I guess QF can take some consolidation in the fact I’m ranting like this, it means I’m still willing to fly them. The day they have to be worried about is the day I decide ranting like this is no longer worth it)

I do not believe these are weasel words. I think clause 10.6 is intended to operate where a member might be acting, or likely to act, in a certain way which would be detrimental to the safety or comfort of others in the lounge. If a member appears intoxicated, or was having a heated argument with their spouse, or was arguing with lounge entry staff... that's what I think clause 10.6 is designed to capture.

To interpret it so widely, that entry staff can deny access for 'any reason', would be too broad. And would defeat the intention of buying membership.

While overcrowding could be an issue, and may otherwise be a valid reason to deny entry based on safety, I would think the onus would be on the airline to ensure it could accommodate the likely volume of members before selling a product that entitles entry. Or, as they have done, provide alternative facilities. But the wording of the overcrowding issue should be amended accordingly in the terms and conditions (for example 'lounge access to members may be restricted in cases of overcrowding. Alternative lounge arrangement will be made where available, or a voucher provided if this is not possible'.)

 

[harvyk]

Re: QP Members Barred from LAX TBIT Lounge until upgrade Completed - Sometime "Next Y

Like all good idea’s, this one came to me whilst I was away at lunch, and I’m hoping that Red Roo will see this and take this advice.

1. Send out an email to all QP members, no matter if they have a booking for LAX or not. Profusely apologising for this situation, do not use weasel words, do not even try to hide it behind “unintentionally”. In that email explain exactly what options a QP member has. Automatically an alternate lounge should be given (eg head straight to lounge XYZ and simply show your QP membership card).
2. Compensation should be offered, at the customer’s choice. QF spent months talking up the new TBIT lounge as the place to be. This compensation should not be because they are forced to, but in the interest of acknowledging the fact that they are going to have lots of very disappointed customers who may just be convinced to look at one of the other transpac options next time. Examples of compensation could be
a. Some extra SC’s / a meaningful amount of points
b. An FLounge pass for SYD / MEL (it’s an almost since you couldn’t see the best of what QF have to offer at TBIT, experience the best of what QF have to offer anywhere).
c. 2 TBIT lounge passes for use once the TBIT lounge can be opened back up to all eligible customers.

Before anyone says “but this will cost QF”, that horse has bolted, QF hyped something but did not deliver, this is now in the interest of ensuring that customers consider QF an option next time.

A suggestion for the wording of the email could be

Dear Harvyk

As you may be aware, Qantas recently opened a new lounge in Los Angeles. As you may also be aware we’ve had to turn some Qantas Club members away. For this we offer an unreserved apology.
Our plan is to be able to open the Los Angeles Lounge back up to Qantas Club members in ____ 2015. Until then we would like to invite you to use the _______ lounge, of course if space is available in the new Qantas Lounge you will be advised so on arrival at the _______ lounge.

We heavily advertised this new lounge, and had stated that Qantas Club members would be welcome. Since we cannot live up to that promise, we’d like to offer Qantas Club members a little something extra if you are unable to visit the Qantas Lounge prior to your next Qantas flight from Los Angeles, just to show we still do care about you as our customer.
Your choice of

• 20 Status Credits, get that (Silver / Gold) status sooner or
• 5000 points to put towards your next upgrade or
• A First Lounge invite to either Sydney or Melbourne, experience the best Qantas has to offer or
• 2 Los Angeles Qantas Lounge passes, for use once the Los Angeles Qantas Lounge has been opened up to all eligible guests.

We look forwards to welcoming you on your next Qantas flight...

Etc etc, some very limited amount of fine print since fine print does not engender trust…

Just a suggestion.

 

[opusman]

Re: QP Members Barred from LAX TBIT Lounge until upgrade Completed - Sometime "Next Y

Like all good idea’s, this one came to me whilst I was away at lunch, and I’m hoping that Red Roo will see this and take this advice.

There's buckley's chance of Red Roo even posting in this thread, tbh, let alone QF sending out an email like that.

Nice idea though...

 

[harvyk]

Re: QP Members Barred from LAX TBIT Lounge until upgrade Completed - Sometime "Next Y

There's buckley's chance of Red Roo even posting in this thread, tbh, let alone QF sending out an email like that.

Nice idea though...

true, although one can always live in hope...