QFF programme changes - AGAIN! Can't be good news?

[thadocta]

Bzzzzt, sorry sunshine, but it costs a lot more than 5K points to upgrade SYD-SIN.

SYD-SIN is a zone 3 flight, meaning that you would earn 25 SC's per flight in discount Y or 50 SC's in full-Y (which is sold SO rarely that a lot of QF staff aren't even aware it exists).

So your 22 flights at 25 SC's per flight would have earnt you 550 SC's, almost to Gold qualification or requalification - and since this is only over six months, you should be easily qualified for Gold by now, if not Plat.

Now, a discount Y to J upgrade for zone 3 will set you back 45,000 points (NOT the 5,000 points you claimed). Full Y to J (which remember, nobody uses) costs 25,000 points. Did you actually have enough points when requesting your upgrade?

Finally, did you actually WAITLIST for the upgrade, or did you just phone up and ask for it there and then, only to be discouraged when it wasn't available?

So far this year, I am 3/6 in having upgrade waitlists cleared on SYD-SIN-SYD, so they do actually clear.

The other alternative is to try using QF 31/32 from SYD to SIN and return, the J cabin is usually a lot more open on this flight.

Dave

 

[donjsimons]

Qantas have made a calculated commercial decision to change the amount of points needed for most trips. That is OK with me; business is business.

However they have made this retrospective, and that is not OK with me.

We collected FF points believing that we would be able to travel those KMs in the future.
(Remember this company changed from KM to Miles because Miles are longer?)

When Westpac changed the amount of points per dollar, they kept faith with their customers and retained the value of the points that people had previously earned. Only dollars spent after the decision date attracted the lower points. Fair enough.

Qantas have not been fair or ethical in my view because they have changed the contract after the event.

Am I wrong? Is this legal?

 

[shillard]

Am I wrong? Is this legal?

Yes, you are wrong.

Yes, it is legal.

 

[leojakimow]

QANTAS FREQUENT FLYER REWARDS

People should not be concerned about needing more points for QANTAS reward flights, as seats are rarely available even when their planes are flying half empty. QANTAS make it very difficult to redeem points.

I wanted to take an economy class reward flight to LAX and return in early December. No return flights were available until late March, so I had to buy a ticket. The return flight was no more than 70% capacity but QANTAS would not release reward seats, even on a stand by basis.

This was repeated this year. I have been trying to get a reward flight to the USA since June on a very flexible timetable - I could leave anytime, and return anytime, as long as I got between 4 and 7 weeks in the USA. I spent hours on the internet night after night but on most nights could not find a reward seat from any city in Australia to any city in the USA for the remainder of 2004. I did not try for 2005 as the booking system would not provide next available flight information, and forced me to scroll through nominated departure dates and be told that no seats were available. This took hours with my slow dial up internet service. After three months, a seat (cancellation?) became available and I booked for departure in October and return in November. The planes were at about 50% capacity on both legs of the flight, while QANTAS would not release reward seats. QANTAS obviously are not serious in providing reward flights.

I have paid more for QANTAS tickets to obtain frequent flyer points and feel cheated with the points devaluation. I do not have enough points for a return flight to LAX but have enough for Honolulu and will book a return flight to Honolulu (if there are seats available) before May, and make my own way to LAX. After that QANTAS and I will part company.


Stampman

 

[englishmanabroad]

Interestingly, I'm off to London tomorrow, back on Tues and my upgrades to first have come through both ways. Although I always request an upgrade, I've never got it both ways before and I'd guess >60% of the time it doesnt come through at all. I wonder if its just a quiet time of year or whether people are "downgrading" to J now the QF J product is so much better than it was?

 

[straitman]

This was repeated this year. I have been trying to get a reward flight to the USA since June on a very flexible timetable - I could leave anytime, and return anytime, as long as I got between 4 and 7 weeks in the USA. I spent hours on the internet night after night but on most nights could not find a reward seat from any city in Australia to any city in the USA for the remainder of 2004. I did not try for 2005 as the booking system would not provide next available flight information, and forced me to scroll through nominated departure dates and be told that no seats were available. This took hours with my slow dial up internet service. After three months, a seat (cancellation?) became available and I booked for departure in October and return in November. The planes were at about 50% capacity on both legs of the flight, while QANTAS would not release reward seats. QANTAS obviously are not serious in providing reward flights.

Maybe I'm was just lucky.

I have just tried,
Mel - Lax Sat 15th Jan 2005 QF 103 &
Lax - Mel Thur 24th Feb 2005 QF 94.
Also tried,
Bne - Lax Sat 19th Feb 2005 QF 25 &
Lax - Bne Sat 2nd Apr 2005 QF 26.

I picked both of these totally at random and both show up as available. As I scroll backward and forward through the surrounding dates there appears to be plenty of availability. I believe the dates I picked fall within the laid down requirements.

I actually find this degree of availability a little surprising however not as surprising as the comments above which implied virtually no availability at all :!:

 

[NM]

Re: QANTAS FREQUENT FLYER REWARDS

I wanted to take an economy class reward flight to LAX and return in early December. No return flights were available until late March, so I had to buy a ticket. The return flight was no more than 70% capacity but QANTAS would not release reward seats, even on a stand by basis.

I had a very interesting discussion with a QF CSD today on an international flight. She was commenting to me about how regularly she is confronted by FF member who have been waitlisted for upgrades that have not cleared and yet there are empty seats in the J cabin. In the process, she explained something I was not aware of (and am not totally convinced it is true, but someone else may know more).

On a flight that operated by QF and codeshared with another airline, each airline has a fixed number of seats to sell (or give away). So the empty seats seen may not be available to QF to use for upgrades because they belong to the codeshare airline and not to QF.

She quoted one situation where a flight from an Aisian port is operated by QF and codeshared with an Asian carrier. Out of the 25 J seats on the 767, QF only has 2 and the codeshare airline has the other 23. Once QF has sold their two J seats, they don't have any more to sell or to use for upgrades. And if the codeshare airline does not sell any of its 23 J seats, it could be a very empty J cabin and yet there could be a lot of people disappointed that their waitlists dod not clear.

I expressed surprise about this fixed number of seats for QF and the codeshare airline, but she confirmed and was very definate that is the way it works for codeshares. I always assumed there was a common pool from which the two (or more) airlines can sell seats - but apparently not.

 

[Guest]

I have just tried,
Mel - Lax Sat 15th Jan 2005 QF 103 &
Lax - Mel Thur 24th Feb 2005 QF 94.
Also tried,
Bne - Lax Sat 19th Feb 2005 QF 25 &
Lax - Bne Sat 2nd Apr 2005 QF 26.

I picked both of these totally at random and both show up as available. As I scroll backward and forward through the surrounding dates there appears to be plenty of availability. I believe the dates I picked fall within the laid down requirements.

I actually find this degree of availability a little surprising however not as surprising as the comments above which implied virtually no availability at all :!:

What status are you? Did you book online?

 

[straitman]

What status are you? Did you book online?

SG and this was done online.

 

[Kiwi Flyer]

Re: QANTAS FREQUENT FLYER REWARDS

NM's post describes how I understand airshare works where a route has profit sharing between 2 carriers. Eg LH & UA on some trans-atlantic routes.

I didnt think this also applied to codeshares, and in any event expect that any seats held due to such arrangement get released at either airline's request or automatically X days out.

But I could have misunderstood this when folk explained it to me.

 

[NM]

What status are you? Did you book online?

SG and this was done online.

And of course SG and WP members get WHY rewards from both X and T fare buckets. So if you want better award availability, earn the status - its as simple as that .

 

[danielh]

Well I'm still very annoyed about the changes and since I'll be having my Honeymoon next year around April 05, I think I had better decide what to do with my points pretty soon. I intend to go to London then the rest of Europe but whether or not i'll use my points, or pay, or just get two round the worlds I have no clues.

I mainly use my QFF points for two return tickets MLB-HKG (Hong Kong) for 50,000 points each and I must admit, when looking back three years ago, this flight used to cost me 80,000 each. With the new change to 60,000, I guess I'm not totally stuffed by Qantas.

Does anyone know how far MLB-JPN is or how much it will cost under the new system? I think under the current system they are at the 80,000 range but I don't know if this new system puts them in the Zone 5 area or not.

Regards
Daniel

 

[sxc]

Sorry for asking the obvious, but what is SG status?

 

[Craigo]

Sorry for asking the obvious, but what is SG status?

Don't worry, it's not that obvious - it stands for Scummy Gold. The regulars on Flyer Talk came up with some ironic prefixes for the Qantas status levels. Platinum became 'W**ker Platinum', Gold 'Scummy Gold', Silver 'Pleb Silver' and Bronze 'Nothing Bronze'. The Qantas Club is the 'Qantas Pub' or QP. I'm a QP PS, becoming an SG on 21 March.

 

[danielh]

Just worked out on Excel a spreadsheet that tells you how much a flight before the change and after the change will cost you in terms of points.

For my perspective, as a Melbourne resident, the only benefit in this list is that Tokyo is cheaper for me but for Sydney people and others geographically closer, it is worse.

Here is a few I plugged in. I got the distance values from the Qantas flight calculator using the "How many Points will I earn" option.

1-Way-mls Old system New System
HK 4596 50000 60000
Shanghai 4992 50000 72000
Tokyo 5080 80000 72000
LA 7923 80000 96000
LA-Las Vegas 8159 80000 96000
LA-Seattle 8877 110000 112000
LA-Chicago 9665 110000 128000
LA-NY 10390 110000 128000
London 10516 110000 128000

Regards
Daniel

PS: I was not sure how much the LA variants would really cost but just assumed I could do the transit through LA.

 

[danielh]

Sorry for the formatting. All my nice TABS just disappeared.

The last two colums are the points required before and after the new system.

Regards
Daniel

PS: Here are some more. I made BOLD the current point costs.
NOTE: From this, the only benefits for a Melbourne person is Toyko, Seoul and Honolulu.

---------------Old Sys-------New Sys
Wellington 30000-----36000
Auckland 30000-----36000
Ho Chi Minh 50000-----60000
Bangkok 50000-----60000
HK 50000-----60000
Shanghai 50000-----72000
Tokyo 80000-----72000
Seoul 80000-----72000
Honolulu 80000-----72000
LA 80000-----96000
LA-Las Vegas 80000-----96000
LA-SF 80000-----96000
LA-Seattle 110000-----112000
LA-Vancouver 110000-----112000
LA-Chicago 110000-----128000
LA-DC 110000-----128000
LA-NY 110000-----128000
Paris 110000-----128000
London 110000-----128000

 

[tanyavu]

redemption

I rang Qantas on several occasions about redeeming a ticket from Sydney to Ho Chi Minh City. They told me you can earn points but you can not redeem a ticket as it codeshares with Vietnam Airlines and they don't allow redemptions on Cathay Pacific between Hong Kong and HCM. So lets hope that jetstar asia starts flying to HCM.

 

[Guest]

wrong thread

 

[genghiskhan]

CPI Index

Gee, if the calc (BUS was 1xZ2 = 45,000 will be 2xZ3 = 72,000) is right then the quoted argument of a CPI increase means we have been instantly transported to Argentina's inflation rate...

While I am in no way in favour of these changes, I think we need to put a different perspective on it and look at our points as equivalent to cash. This way, the effect on points that the changes result in, can be seen to be similar to the effects of inflation on cash. EG when spare money is stuffed under the matress, or sitting in a bank account (for those with savings!) it often has less buying when it is withdrawn and used for purchasing due to the CPI. Obviously one can earn interest on the cash if it is locked away on term deposit or high interest savings account. However we can't really blame the bank for rises in the cost of living when we use money that is ordinarily just sitting in a account. So, in turn, can we blame QFF for effectively raising their prices for 'points' tickets - as they do this periodically with tickets paid for in cash?
I've been a loyal QFF member for 10 years and have managed (with some flexibility and timing) to recoup domestic & international free flights (majority in peak season) to the value of at least $20k. All this by using credit cards smartly and being loyal to QF (and oneworld partners) when flying. I will remain loyal to QF as it is the one brand that I am proud to support.
BTW, everytime the banks have revised their CC points systems, we have just moved on, eg after moving to Altitude from QT Visa, we are now proudly supporting Suncorp with our Official Wallabies Visa cards.
Anyway, time to get off my soap-box, and no, I am not a QF spokesperson or employee!

 

[jazzop]

These changes are really no surprise. Geoff Dixon has been beating his chest for years telling anyone who’ll listen that Qantas has to reduce their cost. FF points are a HUGE cost to Qantas. They are a liability that they have to hold on their books. Imagine how many points us FF members have stored away for a rainy day. With this change I estimate that points have been de-valued overall by around 20%, not a bad way to reduce your liabilities and costs in one easy swoop. It must look really good on the bottom line, so I hope Qantas management are getting nice big bonuses for Christmas. It seems like a good short term strategy but as a shareholder as well as FF I question the longer term benefits.

Qantas international are doing really well and all of my flights recently have been almost full in economy and business. Qantas domestic is another story. Using 767-300s, A330-2/300s and 737-800s domestically has added thousands of seats a day on domestic routes. Virgin Blue is making real progress on the trunk routes, attracting business customers and Jetstar alone has added thousands of new seats. Of course Qantas are making it easier for us to use points domestically, they need to fill those seats on Qantas and Jetsar. I live in Melbourne so it may at some time benefit me slightly, but I feel for those who live outside of Melbourne, Sydney or Brisbane, you’ve been shafted more than us. I also admit that ‘top ups’, family transfers and one way flights are great, but in reality they’re long over due and benefit Qantas in the long run. Anyway the other changes far outweigh these decent ones.

Qantas’ problem is they are getting to the point where they aren’t offering much more for the price. They say “More than just a seat”, but I say “not much more”. Qantas Club: Great, when you get to the airport early, but it gets so busy in peak times you can’t do much work at all and the food is ordinary. FF Points: Meaning less and less everyday. In flight entertainment: Qantas’ channel 9 news and “feel the spirit” propaganda, or Virgin Blue’s Foxtel? You choose. In-flight meals: Ok if you’re on a ‘meal’ flight otherwise I hope you like cashews and hard cheese sticks. At least on Virgin/Jetstar I can choose what I want. Boarding: If you board in the back half of the group, good luck finding space in the overhead compartment. Food choice: As I’m allergic to seafood I can’t request a non-seafood meal. Instead I have to choose a vegetarian meal.

I already fly Virgin Blue on 80% of my flights domestically, and SIA or Emirates for 50% of international flights, they’re fantastic airlines who value their customers. (I generally only fly Qantas to the US). Virgin has it’s problems (like the Melbourne terminal – absolutely terrible), but I can no longer be bothered arguing with the bean counters at work and at home that I should fly Qantas, even I’m finding it hard to justify. I rarely fly Qantas for personal travel, why would I pay the extra $30+ for an hour flight?

Qantas’ changes look like a good business idea. Perhaps, but consider this. Most business traveller’s are cluey people. We can generally work it out when we’re being taken advantage of. The moment VB brings in a FF program (which isn’t to far off) and customer profiles then I think Qantas’ ‘visionary’ management might have some real challenges on their hands. Then again perhaps Qantas just know that most people will point the finger and go “tut tut Qantas”, but in the end keep flying them and tolerating the changes simply because they believe Qantas is better and thus so are they.