QF9 turnback 8/9/18

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This whole thread is a complete overreaction. Disruptions happen. It's not the end of the world. It's not the first flight to turn back and it won't be the last.

Countless QF AUS-US flights have done this exact thing and it barely got a mention in the news.
 
This whole thread is a complete overreaction. Disruptions happen. It's not the end of the world. It's not the first flight to turn back and it won't be the last.

Countless QF AUS-US flights have done this exact thing and it barely got a mention in the news.
The whole idea of the thread is to discuss the perils of ultra long haul single flights per day and the associated “risks”. Not an over reaction IMO as it wasn’t a good week for this route.

Wait until winter and the strong jet streams - I’m sure there’s a reason QF launched the route in spring
 
I give this opinion as an (ex) police officer. I am not a small guy. But I have seen what crazed people can be like. It once took seven of us (hospital security and police staff) just to hold one skinny 60kg drugged-up teenager on a bed so the medical staff could sew back on the fingers he lost in a knife fight. Air marshalls (the concept) was a feel-good thing. The reality is that they can just kill someone. They were never intended (nor are equipped) to deal with deranged or drunk people. That is Hollywood stuff.
I was on a diverted flight a few years back. It made the news and was also discussed on AFF.

Luckily there were AFP coming back home otherwise the situation would have been worse. I suspect guy was heavily loaded before boarding then had bloody Mary "apperitifs" and beer with each request to cabin crew then his alcohol was cut-off and he stole the flights scotch supply and started drinking that instead. Was asked nicely to behave but this continued. They eventually handcuffed him but he managed to break out and cause more havoc.

It all appeared out of character. There may have also been drugs involved. We diverted to CNS to drop off passenger and then continued onto SYD.
 
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Funny reading some people's comments here like the rubbish you see on Insta and Facebook whenever QF posts a photo of the 74s they are retiring. It's always "Don't retire the 747!", "Please buy the 747-8!", "You guys suck why are you retiring these amazing planes" and so on, completely ignoring the fact that these are $374m planes that, yes although engineering marvels, are getting quite elderly and expensive to keep running. Just like Qantas doesn't have the money to keep old and expensive planes in the air, neither do they have the money to throw at multi million dollar 787s just in case something like this happens on the odd occasion. QF isn't like Emirates with a back pocket bigger than the size of its oil supply. (As a side note EK almost has more A380s in its fleet than QF has planes in general) Its time to stop blaming airlines when passengers start acting the goat. What can they do. Would you rather they continued on their journey for 17 hours with a maniac on the loose? I'd much rather be delayed a day or two even if my aircraft had an unruly passenger on its inbound flight than compromise the safety of everyone on board.
 
, neither do they have the money to throw at multi million dollar 787s just in case something like this happens on the odd occasion. QF isn't like Emirates with a back pocket bigger than the size of its oil supply. (As a side note EK almost has more A380s in its fleet than QF has planes in general) Its time to stop blaming airlines when passengers start acting the goat. What can they do.

Your state what they can't, then ask what they can do. There's been some discussion of this up thread, if you can bear to read it.:)

They could put more some fat into their system, it's just a business decision as to the cost vs improved recovery time and savings. The alliances do have 'pool' planes; so it's not a totally new concept.
 
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Crikey. This show is getting interesting. I may have to ask the attendant for some peanuts.
But I do hope this attendant knows how to take them out of the bag first.
 
Would you rather they continued on their journey for 17 hours with a maniac on the loose? I'd much rather be delayed a day or two even if my aircraft had an unruly passenger on its inbound flight than compromise the safety of everyone on board.

I agree - those on the affected plane understand the issue and would be happy with what you say was done. What I take exception to is the poor traveling folk on the other side of the world, who +2 days later feel the ripple effect, and cop the brunt of having their flight cancelled, downgraded, delayed etc etc.
 
As someone who's helped 4 police and 2 security guards restrain a 50kg 15-year-old girl on MDMA, you do not want to play games with agitated passengers in a confined space over a period of many hours. Qantas / the flight crew clearly did the right thing. And having a spare 787 isn't really the solution - it would've more required having a complete replacement crew available at PER at short notice.

And all this talk about having extra security on board. Would likely not have changed the outcome. Crew already receive conflict resolution training (verbal and physical), and from all reports they did a fantastic job.
 
As someone who's helped 4 police and 2 security guards restrain a 50kg 15-year-old girl on MDMA, you do not want to play games with agitated passengers in a confined space over a period of many hours. Qantas / the flight crew clearly did the right thing. And having a spare 787 isn't really the solution - it would've more required having a complete replacement crew available at PER at short notice.

And all this talk about having extra security on board. Would likely not have changed the outcome. Crew already receive conflict resolution training (verbal and physical), and from all reports they did a fantastic job.

Can’t agree with his post more.
 
Sometimes they just need an EJECT seat.

Would a disruptive passenger be expected to pay costs in such circumstances?

From reading old court cases - that as far as I recall only related to domestic flights, but may have had a Bali one tossed in - QF has previously obtained restitution orders. However it may not do this every time. Taking this course presumably has a cost to the company in solicitors' time (and perhaps a barrister) so it may make little sense if the individual has no or a very unstable work history due to the tiny amount (if any) that could be garnisheed. (AFF members who practice in this area will know a lot more).
 
The whole idea of the thread is to discuss the perils of ultra long haul single flights per day and the associated “risks”. Not an over reaction IMO as it wasn’t a good week for this route.

Wait until winter and the strong jet streams - I’m sure there’s a reason QF launched the route in spring

Comoman, months ago there was technical commentary that implied the very point you're making, that in one direction there will be a far greater chance of a diversion during winter. We'll have to wait and see.
 
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Just like Qantas doesn't have the money to keep old and expensive planes in the air, neither do they have the money to throw at multi million dollar 787s just in case something like this happens on the odd occasion.

...

But it isn't necessarily a case of having a $300 million jet 'just sitting there' for a one-off occasion. The plane would be flying for 10-15 years, so that brings the cost down to $30 million a year. And the plane could be flying around long-haul domestic routes in place of an existing A330 (and generating income in the process).

But that may not be cost effective. Every airline will have to weigh up the risk and potential costs caused by delays or cancellations. Some do have spare planes sitting around (like BA for example), others may put passengers on other airlines (like they do in the USA), others still will figure they've factored the costs of delays into the price of passenger tickets and so they need do nothing extra. In Europe no doubt there is incentive to minimise delays because of EU261, but competition will also come in to play. If your BA flight is delayed too frequently you could be a prime passenger to switch to another airline or alliance. In the Australian domestic market we don't have the same competition, and nothing really from Star Alliance. No one really for people to switch to if you want status for lounge access.
 
The idea that QF should have a 787 on standby is nonsensical. Have you ever seen a company have a paid staff member sitting around in the tearoom all day just turning up and waiting for a co-worker to be sick or injured? This kind of logic makes nil economic sense. The purchase price of a 787 is around the 300 million mark and an asset like that isn't simply purchased by throwing spare cash down on the table. From a shareholder standpoint an idle asset like that represents a liability with ongoing maintenance, insurance and storage costs - which it isn't recouping. Let's not even discuss how buying a 787 isn't simply a case of going to the 787 shop and getting one off the shelf. Boeing has delivered 724 787s to date, of 1390 current standing orders. Presently demand is nearly twice that of what has been supplied.
So what do most workplaces do when a worker is sick or injured? They tend to push the workload out to other staff and negotiate with the end user about delays and compensation - often these are written into the existing supply contracts. Sometimes they will source work from other companies. Airlines are operated by people that have managed companies for years. The reasoning works the same in airlines as it does other businesses. Companies have to balance up the economics of this.
I get that there's a sympathy to delayed PAX. I get that there's a level of inconvenience to people who are put onto planes that don't have the same secondary services to what was expected. But this doesn't make the QF network 'fragile'. in 2016 Qantas carried around 60,000 passengers a day. When my friend up there stated '1000s' of passengers will be inconvenienced over a series of days, this is a small fraction of the passengers QF will be dealing with over that time frame. Fragile would imply that right across the network there was a broad impact, yet it amounts to probably closer to 1% of passengers. The reputational impact overall is likely to be minimal. As we saw, the passengers on board the 787 were very understanding about the return. I can't see the passengers ferried onto lesser aircraft seeing it as a critical deal-breaker with the loss of IFE etc. They at least got to where they needed to be.
So why would you have a rapidly depreciating asset sitting in a costly storage shed ready to fly? Even then you would have to have one at each end of the route - one at Perth, one in London. You can't just throw a 787 over to London in an instant if such an even happens coming the other way. So even from a planning standpoint 1 additional aircraft only presents a less than 50% effective solution to a problem that has occurred, thus far, once on that route in the last year - with daily flight frequency that represents an incident having occurred once in 730 flights in the past year, or less than 0.13% of flights an incident has occurred on.
So no, it isn't fragile. And $300m - more likely $600m +, is too much money to put into mitigating an irregular occurrence.
 
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Have you ever seen a company have a paid staff member sitting around in the tearoom all day just turning up and waiting for a co-worker to be sick or injured?

Yep I've seen many just to name a few Qantas and Virgin both have standby crew in the major bases. Transport companies often have standbys be it train drivers or bus drivers. There are a lot of industries that have people sitting around waiting for something to do wrong.

Expecting a 787 to be sitting around is a bit over kill but having a spare crew in Perth wouldn't hurt Qantas and would have shaved a lot of time off the 17 hour overnight delay.
 
Expecting a 787 to be sitting around is a bit over kill but having a spare crew in Perth wouldn't hurt Qantas and would have shaved a lot of time off the 17 hour overnight delay.

A handful of crew might not hurt but having a whole crew sitting around might, how many Pilots are needed for the flight ... is it 4?

Part of the problem may be where the flight is crewed from, is it correct that the cabin crew base for the flight is London? Or do Australia based cabin crew also do the flight.
 
Part of the problem may be where the flight is crewed from, is it correct that the cabin crew base for the flight is London? Or do Australia based cabin crew also do the flight.

I believe the PER-LHR is crewed from London but pilots from Australia. The main reason behind the 17 hour delay was the crew hours. Had they had a new crew they could have gone within 1-2 hours of arrival (~1am) and the total delay would have been 6-7 hours (something that would have been caught up by the long stop in London before the return back to Perth.
 
The idea that QF should have a 787 on standby is nonsensical.

So why would you have a rapidly depreciating asset sitting in a costly storage shed ready to fly?

i did a quick review of the thread and couldn't see anyone who has suggested what you are saying, so its a straw man argument, I suggest. For my own part, I've suggested that QF, operating these ultra long haul routes (and there are more coming) may need to build some fat into their system to mitigate the effects of IRROPs. Yes, this fat would be a direct cost, as by definition more than they optimally need, so it would be a straight commercial decision of bearing the additional costs in mitigation of possible need. You certainly don't need a spare plane sitting in a shed. You might do better by having, say one additional plane more than 'optimal'; it would be working but the total fleet time-on-the-ground would increase a bit. Same with crew - you might have some extra crew in the rosters. I don't know the technicalities or how it might work - its just a suggestion that if possible, the severe knock-on effects might be mitigated to some extent.

Personally, I always book at least a day's buffer when flying long haul and where I'm connecting to something important, or a flight on a different PNR, to allow for cancellation and delays. In an up-coming trip to Russia, that's adding 2 nights to a trip that's only strictly 7 nights, so its expensive 'insurance'. But if I was flying QF9 or 10, I'd probably be looking at 2 nights buffer, judging by the effect this recent event has had. That gets too expensive, so that's a reason I'd never fly that route as is. Time will tell if many are of a similar mind.
 
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