QF636 SAGA!! How do I ensure this gets looked at?

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Just as a question - what was so special about the evening of the 8th August that led the QF636 going to OOL? Was there any particular weather, runway closures or mass diversions from other airports that cluttered up BNE on that evening? Would be interested if there is a web site where scheduled and actual departures/arrivals data was kept.

On theqantassource I can see that QF504 & 551 were both cancelled earlier that day so possibly QF has a B767 go unservicable? But even if a B767 was running late/out of position on that day it still does not explain ending up in OOL due to congestion.
 
10pm at night and more than one hour holding is not acceptable.
I would suggest people visit BNE and count arrivals.
No where near world best practice on a one runway operation.
ATC must wear SOME of the responsibility.
Blackbird,

I ask you to reread my post. ATC is purely reactionary to what a/c arrive and in what order and their performance categories, their requirements and the weather. I challenge you to go and look at an arrivals controllers work environment as it is not a chocolates and champagne area at all. In most circumstances it is much more stressful than the job of a pilot. Australian (civil and military) controllers are sort after world wide in emergency or war zones situations due their abilities.

Are you qualified to make that assessment? Know any of the other circumstances that contributed to the delays etc? And please explain your "World best practice"?

Sorry but you are talking cough and with no knowledge about ATC.
Correct nlagalle, our ATC are certainly world standard. Sometimes we/they don't process as many a/c as some of their compatriots in the US but they do operate to tighter/higher standards. The number of a/c processed is not a true measure of ATC performance.

(Who would have thought, a pilot defending ATC)

ATC's job is to keep the aircraft apart, not to make their operation efficient!!!!

A company will flight plan based upon the weather forecasts, and will adjust cruising levels to allow for expected winds. The crew make the actual decisions as to what levels are flown (or at least what they request from ATC).

Just thought I would add this comment from jb747 for those who are still inclined to blame ATC for this shambles.
 
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10pm at night and more than one hour holding is not acceptable.
I would suggest people visit BNE and count arrivals.
No where near world best practice on a one runway operation.
ATC must wear SOME of the responsibility.

Only way ATC could have done things quicker would be to bust separation minima, not generally a good idea, just ask your local ATC team about AA587!

Given wake turbulence on the runway means a minimum 90 seconds between movements, more often 180 seconds with heavies in the mix (which you have quite a few of at that time of the night), you would be lucky to get 30 movements in total in an hour.
 
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Hi guys,
Again, approximately 20 minutes later again, we were advised that more aircraft had been put in front of us in the queue, and that as a result we did not have sufficient fuel to land in Brisbane, so we would be diverting to Coolangatta (OOL) on the Gold Coast.

Howcome QF636 was pushed further back in the queue if it was low on fuel? Wonder if it was Kevin Rudd's plane? - Given his (past?) opposition to the parallel runway and aircraft noise, this would go down well.
 
The aircraft likely missed it's original landing slot due to departing late out of MEL.

This was due to operating crew arriving late into MEL off another flight.

BNE has a midnight curfew at the moment due to runway maintenance.
 
The aircraft likely missed it's original landing slot due to departing late out of MEL.

This was due to operating crew arriving late into MEL off another flight.

BNE has a midnight curfew at the moment due to runway maintenance.

My understanding from the OP is that they had obtained a new slot, but were pushed back due to a fuel emergency on another aircraft, is this correct?
 
Thanks for the reply serfty, after reading the OP I realized that they landed at OOL just before 11pm with the intention of refueling and flying to BNE, as I read the OP, the QF636 crew may have but as there were no refueling staff available at OOL on landing - by the time they got refueled they would have missed the midnight BNE curfew.

As everyone at OOL had gone home at OOL airport after 9pm, the pilots of QF636 were really snookered at around 10:10pm although they did not know that until about 10:30pm when they knew that they were definately diverting to OOL. Hence the long time on the ground.

I find the fact that they were denied permission at 11:40pm to take off from OOL more interesting - I would assume its a 10-15min flight to BNE? This would suggest that the "runway maintenence" works are a temporary defacto noise curfew for BNE..... or an admission that BNE airport and/or ATC are unable to vary the timing of or control their construction subcontractors, which is strange as I would have thought that its the air traffic controllers whom are in charge of the airside part of the airport, not the construction contractors.

I know the next time if there is congestion running up to the midnight curfew that every single aircraft in holding patterns may all decide to have a fuel emergency and produce some interesting decisions for BNE ATC and at OOL airports!
 
My understanding from the OP is that they had obtained a new slot, but were pushed back due to a fuel emergency on another aircraft, is this correct?

Thats what they were told, without the full picture we really have no idea, Brisbane gets a lot of Air Ambulance traffic as well which like the PMs plane would often have priority.
 
Thanks for the reply serfty, after reading the OP I realized that they landed at OOL just before 11pm with the intention of refueling and flying to BNE, as I read the OP, the QF636 crew may have but as there were no refueling staff available at OOL on landing - by the time they got refueled they would have missed the midnight BNE curfew.

....

I find the fact that they were denied permission at 11:40pm to take off from OOL more interesting - I would assume its a 10-15min flight to BNE? This would suggest that the "runway maintenence" works are a temporary defacto noise curfew for BNE..... or an admission that BNE airport and/or ATC are unable to vary the timing of or control their construction subcontractors, which is strange as I would have thought that its the air traffic controllers whom are in charge of the airside part of the airport, not the construction contractors.

I know the next time if there is congestion running up to the midnight curfew that every single aircraft in holding patterns may all decide to have a fuel emergency and produce some interesting decisions for BNE ATC and at OOL airports!

There is no curfew at Brisbane. The main runway is NOTAM'd off, 14/32 is available and is used during the hours 1200-0500 local. There is a curfew at OOL, 2300-0600. You can break it at your peril, just like you can break the SY curfew, it will just cost you.

With the runway works at BNE, ATC do NOT have control over the runway once it is NOTAM'd off. They are time critical works and only comes back (if we are lucky) 15 mins before 0500. More than once has the VOZ aircraft from PH held waiting for it to return to service.

Aircraft don't call fuel emergency for no reason. Nor should they wait in a holding pattern knowing they will become fuel critical. The scenario would have been something like this:
you enter the holding pattern with advice that you will hold for 30 mins. That is the holding fuel you are carrying, so everything ok. You get to 27 mins and get told you've been pushed back 10 mins because there are Medical priority aircraft who will come through with no delay and have taken some slots. Suddenly you are beyond limits. You therefore declare fuel critical. This will push you up the order but obviously push others back, which may then push them into the same scenario.

What you cannot do, after been told you will hold for 40 mins and you are only holding fuel for 30, is sit in the holding pattern for 30 mins and then declare fuel critical. Once holding exceeds the published holding fuel, it is alerted to the affected aircraft as a hazard so they can make provision to divert if required to arrange more fuel. I suspect something similar happened to this flight, it was just unfortunate it happened at that time of night. The pilot made the right decision to go somewhere else, I'm sure they were just limited in options, they would not have made SY before curfew, probably not enough fuel to go back to ML.

For the benefit of some, ATC do not divert aircraft, that is a pilots decision. ATC will determine how they track to the new destination, but it certainly is a pilots decision where they go.
 
10pm at night and more than one hour holding is not acceptable.
I would suggest people visit BNE and count arrivals.
No where near world best practice on a one runway operation.
ATC must wear SOME of the responsibility.
I think the best is around 56 movements in an hour, regularly over 50, that's up there with worlds best practice
 
The 'Plane Talking' blog has given AFF a free plug and is fairly scathing as to how QF has ignored blog author Mr Sandiland's request for an explanation:

Qantas ignores jet load of angry stranded flyers | Plane Talking

I agree that this 'reflects...poorly...on Qantas...to care for dislocated passengers.'

The BNE single runway situation is set to continue until at least 2020, assuming that the airport can keep to its construction timelines. If I recall, BNE airport's Dutch lessee has yet to settle its dispute with airlines that quite reasonably are asking 'why should we pay for something now via a levy when it isn't yet built and when some airlines may be out of business when this infrastructure opens for planes to use?'

An event such as this is unusual but given the propensity for weather related delays along the Australian east coast on at least a few days or nights a year and the occasional aircraft failures earlier in a day that lead to lots of late running as problems cascade, if it occurred again, would QF handle it better?

I hope that one or more passengers on QF636 who use screen names can inform us what compensation QF actually gave its passengers. Were there any restrictions on any provided vouchers such as 'expires in three months', 'bookings must be made through QF and incur a phone contact fee' and so on?
 
The 'Plane Talking' blog has given AFF a free plug and is fairly scathing as to how QF has ignored blog author Mr Sandiland's request for an explanation:

The BNE single runway situation is set to continue until at least 2020, assuming that the airport can keep to its construction timelines. If I recall, BNE airport's Dutch lessee has yet to settle its dispute with airlines that quite reasonably are asking 'why should we pay for something now via a levy when it isn't yet built and when some airlines may be out of business when this infrastructure opens for planes to use?'

Virgin has indicated it is willing to make an upfront payment. QF still says no, and is being backed by IATA, which is totally opposed to airlines being asked to pay years in advance for infrastructure.
 
I tend to agree with QF. It is an infrastructure company that is setup to raise equity (but mostly debt) to hold infrastructure.

Certainly didn't see the airports asking for pre funding of car park structures.
 
Virgin has indicated it is willing to make an upfront payment. QF still says no, and is being backed by IATA, which is totally opposed to airlines being asked to pay years in advance for infrastructure.

Sounds equitable. Mind you, Virgin pledged its upfront payment in exchange for special conditions (which, in theory, aren't much different to standard entitlements unless BAC decides to stiff all airlines except Virgin).

This probably belongs in a thread about BNE's dismal situation, but BAC should've been compelled to pull its finger out ages ago, with the State and Federal governments beating the drum hard to boot.
 
With the way Sandilands carries on, is it any wonder why he is ignored?

Aah Sandilands... Pure journalism genius in that article. The seething bias against Qantas is so apparent... And at least we now know he reads AFF for story inspirations.
 
There is no curfew at Brisbane. The main runway is NOTAM'd off, 14/32 is available and is used during the hours 1200-0500 local. There is a curfew at OOL, 2300-0600. You can break it at your peril, just like you can break the SY curfew, it will just cost you.

Ah - my apologies - I did not know that Coolongatta had a curfew - now its clearer what happened about the decision not to leave Coolongatta.......

Still leaves the questions about QF operations centre though, aren't events like this exactly why you have an operations centre in the first place?
 
There is no curfew at Brisbane. The main runway is NOTAM'd off, 14/32 is available and is used during the hours 1200-0500 local.

14/32 is not much use to anything over 737 MTOW, given the plane in question was a 767, BNE was effectively closed come midnight.
 
Qantas ignores jet load of angry stranded flyers | Plane Talking

[h=2]Qantas ignores jet load of angry stranded flyers[/h]Ben Sandilands | Aug 26, 2013 5:59PM | EMAIL | PRINT



It’s almost a week since the Australian Frequent Flyer forum published a detailed and excruciating account as to how QF636 to Brisbane on 8 August found itself at the Gold Coast airport when it ran low on fuel and its passengers were then poorly treated by what purports to be a full service carrier.

It’s also almost a working day since Plane Talking sought a full explanation of the events of that night, and inability of the country’s largest airline to help its customers, or be accountable to the travelling public.


Ben has just landed & is now proceeding to the terminal. :shock:

It's laughable that his article was written on 26 August 2013, some 18 days after this incident & he's demanding that it's been "almost a working day since Plane Talking sought a full explanation of the events of that night".

Why does the airline owe Ben Sandilands an explanation? Just because he writes a totally biased Mickey Mouse blog that's had a massive 2 re-tweets?

A reporter since November 30, 1960, Ben Sandilands looks at what really matters up in the sky: public administration of air transport and its safety, the accountability of the carriers, and space for everyone’s knees.

I think just mentioning the year would be sufficient. Naming the actual date itself is just so AR.
 
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Qantas ignores jet load of angry stranded flyers | Plane Talking




Ben has just landed & is now proceeding to the terminal. :shock:

It's laughable that his article was written on 26 August 2013, some 18 days after this incident & he's demanding that it's been "almost a working day since Plane Talking sought a full explanation of the events of that night".

Why does the airline owe Ben Sandilands an explanation? Just because he writes a totally biased Mickey Mouse blog that's had a massive 2 re-tweets?



I think just mentioning the year would be sufficient. Naming the actual date itself is just so AR.

Do you think he is HLO? ;)

I wonder what the QF media team think of such requests?

The only people owed anything are the pax on QF636 that night.
 
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