QF near miss in DRW (another DRW incident)

[markis10]

During a hair-raising moment, the collision avoidance system on board the Boeing 717, en route from Alice Springs, warned the pilots that the other plane was 800ft (250m) beneath them.
But Captain Robert Flipo chillingly wrote that "it must have got a lot closer than that".
According to a source familiar with the near miss, after the Melbourne-bound 737 took off from runway 29 shortly after 1.30pm the RAAF's Australian Defence Air Traffic System mistakenly assigned the tag for the plane to one of its Hercules C-130 aircraft flying through the control tower's airspace.
This meant air traffic controllers were not able to see the plane's identity, speed or height. Compounding the problem, an air traffic controller then allegedly confused the inbound 717 with the Hercules before accidently setting it on a collision course.
"We had been given a series of apparently non-sensical (sic) clearances both lateral and vertical," Captain Flipo wrote in a report. "We asked several times as to the intentions of ATC, e.g. what approach/track miles to expect, but received non-conclusive response."
After clearing the aircraft to land on runway 29 an air traffic controller cleared the plane to descend to 7000ft, he said.

Read more: Qantas jets put on the path to disaster | News.com.au
​

 

[The Rok]

And I believe this controller has been suspended, is that right?

 

[jetlagger]

This should never ever have a chance to happen.

 

[anat0l]

So who is likely at fault here? QF or ATC?

Any credit to the QF pilots at all, or are they amongst the likely doofuses in this mess up?

 

[markis10]

So who is likely at fault here? QF or ATC?

Any credit to the QF pilots at all, or are they amongst the likely doofuses in this mess up?

Given its ATCs responsibility to separate aircraft and the pilots would at face value have appeared to followed instructions, I would say its an ATC issue but we are a long way from an official cause that lays blame.

Seems to be a trend thats growing with such incidents just looking at 2012:

[TABLE="class: selectable_grid"]
[TR="class: header"]
[TH]Investigation Number[/TH]
[TH]Title[/TH]
[TH]Occurrence Date [/TH]
[TH]Report Status[/TH]
[TH="class: sorted"]Release
Date

[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR="class: even"]
[TD="class: investigation_number"]AO-2012-131[/TD]
[TD]Loss of separation assurance VH-NXQ / QFA A839, near Darwin NT, 2 October 2012
[/TD]
[TD="class: date"]02 Oct 2012[/TD]
[TD="class: centered"]Pending[/TD]
[TD="class: date"]N/A[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd"]
[TD="class: investigation_number"]AO-2012-132[/TD]
[TD]Loss of separation assurance - overhead Evans Head (ALA) - 28 September 2012[/TD]
[TD="class: date"]28 Sep 2012[/TD]
[TD="class: centered"]Pending[/TD]
[TD="class: date"]N/A[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: even"]
[TD="class: investigation_number"]AO-2012-126[/TD]
[TD]Airprox - VH-PZK/Unknown, Piper PA-28/Unknown, near Rottnest Island Aerodrome, WA, 23 September 2012[/TD]
[TD="class: date"]23 Sep 2012[/TD]
[TD="class: centered"]Pending[/TD]
[TD="class: date"]N/A[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd"]
[TD="class: investigation_number"]AE-2012-081[/TD]
[TD]Breakdown of separation - Boeing 747, VH-OJI and unknown aircraft, 80 km SE of Aktau, Kazakhstan, 26 May 2012[/TD]
[TD="class: date"]26 May 2012[/TD]
[TD="class: centered"]Final[/TD]
[TD="class: date"]20 Sep 2012[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: even"]
[TD="class: investigation_number"]AO-2012-118[/TD]
[TD]Airspace related event - VH-KFN/VH-VRW, Beech 1900C/Aerospatiale AS.350 B2, Newman Aerodrome, WA, 06 September 2012[/TD]
[TD="class: date"]06 Sep 2012[/TD]
[TD="class: centered"]Pending[/TD]
[TD="class: date"]N/A[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd"]
[TD="class: investigation_number"]AO-2012-119[/TD]
[TD]Loss of separation assurance - VH-ZZJ / VH-LOJ, Bombardier DHC-8-202 / Aerospatiale AS332L, Darwin Airport, NT, 4 September 2012
[/TD]
[TD="class: date"]04 Sep 2012[/TD]
[TD="class: centered"]Pending[/TD]
[TD="class: date"]N/A[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: even"]
[TD="class: investigation_number"]AO-2012-115[/TD]
[TD]Airprox - VH-VMM and VH-FTR, Cessna 172S and Schweizer 269C, Parafield Airport, 9 km (Dam Wall), SA, 1 September 2012[/TD]
[TD="class: date"]01 Sep 2012[/TD]
[TD="class: centered"]Pending[/TD]
[TD="class: date"]N/A[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd"]
[TD="class: investigation_number"]AO-2012-111[/TD]
[TD]Airspace related event - Cessna 172S, VH-EPB/Unknown, Moorabbin Aerodrome, Vic. 27 August 2012[/TD]
[TD="class: date"]30 Aug 2012[/TD]
[TD="class: centered"]Pending[/TD]
[TD="class: date"]N/A[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: even"]
[TD="class: investigation_number"]AO-2012-101[/TD]
[TD]Breakdown of separation - VH-FDD, Beech 200/Dingo 008, Beech 350, near Cooktown, Queensland, 9 August 2012[/TD]
[TD="class: date"]09 Aug 2012[/TD]
[TD="class: centered"]Pending[/TD]
[TD="class: date"]N/A[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd"]
[TD="class: investigation_number"]AO-2012-102[/TD]
[TD]Airprox - VH-VTA/VH-VSD and VH-PKH/VH-VTJ, Ballarat Airport, Victoria, 4 August 2012[/TD]
[TD="class: date"]04 Aug 2012[/TD]
[TD="class: centered"]Pending[/TD]
[TD="class: date"]N/A[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: even"]
[TD="class: investigation_number"]AO-2012-048[/TD]
[TD]Breakdown of separation - Boeing 737-838,VH-VXI and an Airbus A330-243, B-6073, near Tindal, NT, 6 April 2012
[/TD]
[TD="class: date"]06 Apr 2012[/TD]
[TD="class: centered"]Final[/TD]
[TD="class: date"]03 Aug 2012[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd"]
[TD="class: investigation_number"]AO-2012-033[/TD]
[TD]Airspace related event - Piper PA-39, VH-ICS and a Pacific Aerospace CT/4B, VH-YCR, 15 km East Gunnedah Airport, NSW, 21 February 2012[/TD]
[TD="class: date"]21 Feb 2012[/TD]
[TD="class: centered"]Final[/TD]
[TD="class: date"]03 Aug 2012[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[NM]

So who is likely at fault here? QF or ATC?

Any credit to the QF pilots at all, or are they amongst the likely doofuses in this mess up?

Looks to be an ATC stuff-up from the report linked. No blame at this stage for pilots. But we will need to await the ATSB report to know for sure.

 

[Ansett]

Qantas Planes Seconds away From Coliding

Qantas planes nearly collide over Darwin

Thankfully we have the systems onboard these days to avoid such an actual event

 

[munitalP]

Re: Qantas Planes Seconds away From Coliding

250 meters vertical separation. At what altitude? If at 30k feet, very scary...

 

[iRobbo]

Re: Qantas Planes Seconds away From Coliding

250 meters vertical separation. At what altitude? If at 30k feet, very scary...

I guess you don't want to know the separation standard is 300 metres (1000') at 30000' ?? (Not trying to trivialise the incident)

 

[munitalP]

Re: Qantas Planes Seconds away From Coliding

I guess you don't want to know the separation standard is 300 metres (1000') at 30000' ?? (Not trying to trivialise the incident)

My point being at cruise altitude, the AC travelling at 7-800kph toward each other - 250M is NOT seconds from collision, it's milliseconds...

 

[nlagalle]

My point being at cruise altitude, the AC travelling at 7-800kph toward each other - 250M is NOT seconds from collision, it's milliseconds...

Not relevant when they are talking about vertical separation. You are thinking of horizontal separation where separation is much greater. Pretty sure it's in nautical miles.

 

[mannej]

Re: Qantas Planes Seconds away From Coliding

My point being at cruise altitude, the AC travelling at 7-800kph toward each other - 250M is NOT seconds from collision, it's milliseconds...

I think you may have your planes of motion the wrong way around here.

I'd be much more worried of the horizontal separation was 250 metres.

 

[Fruitcake]

Re: Qantas Planes Seconds away From Coliding

I think you may have your planes of motion the wrong way around here.

I'd be much more worried of the horizontal separation was 250 metres.

C'mon, landing at SFO is fun!


(I believe centreline separation is 750ft, somewhere a bit shy of 230m. Simultaneous 747-400 ops would probably put the wingtips much less than 200m apart).

 

[Awesom Andy]

Re: Qantas Planes Seconds away From Coliding

I don't think the pilots are at fault at all. They followed ATC instructions as needed, and have also questioned their intention. There are some times when it's somewhat ok to not follow ATC instructions, although these occasions are rare and generally best not seen at all.

 

[markis10]

Re: Qantas Planes Seconds away From Coliding

I don't think the pilots are at fault at all. They followed ATC instructions as needed, and have also questioned their intention. There are some times when it's somewhat ok to not follow ATC instructions, although these occasions are rare and generally best not seen at all.

They are reported in the press to have followed instructions, that's hardly conclusive as you would know if you have ever had dealings with the press and their take on a story and what parts to include, while its reasonable to expect they have followed instructions, it's prudent to not assume anything until the facts emerge from a source other than the press.