Qatar denied extra capacity into Australia

[justinbrett]

That’s a pretty weak response to the undoubted privilege extended to politicians in public servants by free access to the Chairmans lounge. I mean influence is exactly what Qantas is after in doing that.

Do they not also get free access to the VA equivalent Beyond lounge?

 

[RooFlyer]

Do they not also get free access to the VA equivalent Beyond lounge?

Don't know - do they?

 

[drron]

I agree with this decision. Why hand over the premium ports to be milked by a foreign company? Short term, yes we get cheaper fares, longer term we lose local jobs and get higher fares once the locals are broke. Surely if we learned anything from 2020 it was the need to maintain local industries (not that QF helped much).

I agree open skies should only exist where its mutually beneficial like SIN and New Zealand.

QR can increase services to ADL, DRW, CBR, CNS, OOL etc. I also think the nonsense services like the DOH-MEL-ADL service that was essentially useless for ADL originating pax should not be allowed either - to get the additional services to the secondary ports they should have to fly direct to that port and then do their tag to the premium ports.

So if the demand is there for QR to want to introduce more flights to ADL why in the heck doesn't QFi fly to and from ADL.

Anyone who believes that QF wasn't in there lobbying as hard as they could needs to think again.

 

[justinbrett]

Don't know - do they?

Pretty sure they do.

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[Zanzara]

Good old QF needs all the protection it can get. Everyone knows Qantas sucks and many choose a better alternative when they can. A lot of people seem to be forgetting the female strip search issue too, QR doesn't have a great reputation either.

 

[justinbrett]

So if the demand is there for QR to want to introduce more flights to ADL why in the heck doesn't QFi fly to and from ADL.

Anyone who believes that QF wasn't in there lobbying as hard as they could needs to think again.

Because that's just how international airlines work. I've posted this before.

It's very common for local carriers to focus on their hub cities, with foreign airlines more likely to serve additional destinations. BA have more destinations in the USA than any US carrier have origins for European services. Reverse is true for UK services - BA focus on London. QF and NZ have more destinations in the USA than any US carrier has origins. This is repeated often in other markets.

ADL is in a perfect location to be served by domestic connections - it's not like you have to backtrack to fly anywhere - unless you're going to Antarctica. If ADL was where DRW is, there's probably far more chance it would have international services.

 

[BAM1748]

How are local jobs lost when you allow an existing player additional services into the country?

...snipped

Lessening competition and allowing Qantas maintain it’s very high fares is just another form of state subsidy.

Crews for one.

QATAR made losses for years only recently making a profit after the world cup there. Prior period was a $4B loss, being a Govt owned airline I guess it doesn't need to panic about it to much, perhaps the Govt of QATAR should have let it go as I'm sure it will be back to a loss entity once more.

 

[Pushka]

So if the demand is there for QR to want to introduce more flights to ADL why in the heck doesn't QFi fly to and from ADL.

Anyone who believes that QF wasn't in there lobbying as hard as they could needs to think again.

When EK flew into Adelaide a few times a week it was always packed and we don’t fly school holidays. Also why we used to be upgraded.

We are backtracking to fly into LHR at Christmas on Emirates.

 

[RooFlyer]

QATAR made losses for years only recently making a profit after the world cup there. Prior period was a $4B loss, being a Govt owned airline I guess it doesn't need to panic about it to much, perhaps the Govt of QATAR should have let it go as I'm sure it will be back to a loss entity once more.

QR is unashamedly used by the Qatar government as an organ to promote the state and the states's growth. And it’s undeniably succeeded in that. If their object was to have a profitable airline, then presumably either the airline could cut back services or amenity to customers or the state could provide further subsidies. But profit doesn’t seem to be the object of QR - rather to be an airline that people are happy to fly and going via Doha airport.

As an airline traveller paying my own way, I’m happy with all of that.

I’m less happy with an Australian company, lobbying by direct and indirect means the Australian government to prevent greater competition in the Australian airline market.

No matter which way you dress it, that’s what’s happened here and we’ll all continue to pay more than we need to because of it. Anyone, raise your hand if you are happy with that (although I guess those flying on other people’s money don’t really care)

 

[dajop]

OK, trying to come up with "national interest" arguments other than protecting QF. Maybe just because of Qatar being more close to Iran?

Who knows the overall context of these negotiations, aren't they with the country not an airline*, in which case non-aviation politics are almost certainly a factor?

Another remotely plausible theory (but a stretch) is that QR dumping capacity into MEL & SYD could undermine the overall viability or frequency of some Asian carriers by reducing the Europe traffic that supports such services, and thus could in theory reduce competition to Asia if these carriers cut such services. Although I'm sure there's something wrong with this logic. But in turn that could leave the space open for expansion of JQF further into Asia.

On the flipside, QF has 2 services a day to Europe serving a single destination (aside from season FCO), so additional QR services would barely rate. More likely to eat into SQ and EK market share. Oh, there we have it, the QF/EK linkage?

* admittedly in the case of Qatar are one and the same.

 

[justinbrett]

I’m less happy with an Australian company, lobbying by direct and indirect means the Australian government to prevent greater competition in the Australian airline market.

It's only preventing a bulk-up of routes that QR already offer, so it's not going to decrease the number of competitors on those routes, only shaping the number of seats. There's also nothing stopping QR operating higher capacity aircraft, as the treaty is limited by services, not seats.

Would adding more QR seats bring down prices on non-QR services? Seems a bit of a stretch. Plenty of the big carriers are either cheaper or more expensive than QR. I guess it would somewhat, but there's a lot of factors to consider.

On the flipside, QF has 2 services a day to Europe serving a single destination (aside from season FCO), so additional QR services would barely rate. More likely to eat into SQ and EK market share.

Agree - I think people are overstating the influence of QF; QF and VA by routine oppose any airline request that doesn't suit their interest. It's not like there's an admin fee to do so. And as we've seen, sometimes they win, sometimes they lose.

I think EK is somewhat safe because of the QF alliance, and it is not capped itself due to the more favourable treaty (for reasons I outlined upthread). It is mostly the Asian carriers that would have lost, particularly SQ.

I was surprised QF renewed the EK deal as it's very much one sided deal these days, I'm not all that sure they get much from it. I wouldn't be surprised to see it go after the QF A350s arrive.

 

[Zanzara]

When EK flew into Adelaide a few times a week it was always packed and we don’t fly school holidays. Also why we used to be upgraded.

We are backtracking to fly into LHR at Christmas on Emirates.

Maybe you should lobby your MPs to encourage the Australian Airline Qantas to actually fly internationally from ADL? Some want to try to pressure overseas airlines to help subsidise QF?
[redacted]

 

[Pushka]

Maybe you should lobby your MPs to encourage the Australian Airline Qantas to actually fly internationally from ADL? Some want to try to pressure overseas airlines to help subsidise QF?
[redacted]

I think they are 'flat out' as far as pollies go, getting international carriers here and have given up on Qantas.

 

[RooFlyer]

It's only preventing a bulk-up of routes that QR already offer, so it's not going to decrease the number of competitors on those routes, only shaping the number of seats.

Yes, more seats from Sydney Melbourne etc through to Europe would definitely put downward pressure on competitor prices.

Why do you think Qantas lobbied so hard against it?

Would adding more QR seats bring down prices on non-QR services? Seems a bit of a stretch.

By non-QR services, do you mean other airlines or routes that they don’t service?

Not many people take QR to fly to Doha. It’s mainly to get through to Europe.

So sure, adding more quality seats, at good prices through to Europe, I think should definitely put downwards pressure everywhere. Good stuff.

People fly out of major airports that aren’t their home hub to get awards seats. I’m sure they will do the same to get a good airfare on a good airline for a revenue seat. Like I usually fly out of ADL on QR rather than the closer MEL because it's cheaper and seat selection is better.

 

[justinbrett]

Why do you think Qantas lobbied so hard against it?

Did they "lobby so hard" against it? Do we have a quantifiable measure of how hard they lobbied? As stated previously I'm not surprised they lobbied - both QF/VA do that as a matter of routine. Not sure "how hard" they lobbied or what reasonings they used beyond "unfair advantage".

By non-QR services, do you mean other airlines or routes that they don’t service?

Not many people take QR to fly to Doha. It’s mainly to get through to Europe.

So sure, adding more quality seats, at good prices through to Europe, I think should definitely put downwards pressure everywhere. Good stuff.

People fly out of major airports that aren’t their home hub to get awards seats. I’m sure they will do the same to get a good airfare on a good airline for a revenue seat. Like I usually fly out of ADL on QR rather than the closer MEL because it's cheaper and seat selection is better.

I mean the other airlines. The big players (SQ/EK - to a lesser extent QF/BA) are already at some margin above QR in Y, so it would more likely affect those pricing similar to QR - MH, MU, EY, CX (based on random dates for Y I look up in Nov). However in J, QR prices at the upper end of the market with these same carriers, with many other airlines operating J at thousands of dollars cheaper.

So I think if QR flooded the market, a lot of these cheaper Y airlines could disappear, but probably not have much effect on the big carriers; however it might bring down J prices. Does the government care about J fare competition? I'm not sure they do.

It's a complex situation and the issue with treaties (vs alliances) is generally they're forever. Eg the UAE one, is now very one sided, but we can't undo it without diplomatic fallout.

 

[RooFlyer]

Did they "lobby so hard" against it? Do we have a quantifiable measure of how hard they lobbied?

As to the first, if they didn’t, they'd be outright negligent. I don’t think anyone’s ever accused Qantas of playing softball when it comes to competition.

As for the second, I think the government decision is a pretty hard and fast measure

I mean the other airlines. The big players (SQ/EK - to a lesser extent QF/BA) are already at some margin above QR in Y, so it would more likely affect those pricing similar to QR - MH, MU, EY, CX (based on random dates for Y I look up in Nov). However in J, QR prices at the upper end of the market with these same carriers, with many other airlines operating J at thousands of dollars cheaper.

You can slice and dice it anyway you like. The simple fact is more seats, more competition, more choice is better for consumers.

I wouldn’t like to see Qantas fall over, but I don’t think there’s much prospect of that by QR putting a few more planes on to Europe. Gosh, maybe Qantas would lift its product and drop its prices and even drive QR out of the market here.

Let the consumer decide.

 

[justinbrett]

As to the first, if they didn’t, they'd be outright negligent. I don’t think anyone’s ever accused Qantas of playing softball when it comes to competition.

As for the second, I think the government decision is a pretty hard and fast measure

Well we both agree the hardness of the lobbying wasn't a function of the cause then.

You can slice and dice it anyway you like. The simple fact is more seats, more competition, more choice is better for consumers.

I wouldn’t like to see Qantas fall over, but I don’t think there’s much prospect of that by QR putting a few more planes on to Europe. Gosh, maybe Qantas would lift its product and drop its prices and even drive QR out of the market here.

Let the consumer decide.

Do you really think QF's boutique services to Europe are going to be impacted by more QR flights? No, especially when they're putting their money on non-stop services (PER, Sunrise) or those who want to fly via SIN.

I think they're far more exposed on the US market with UA, but that one is fair game because AUS/USA have an open skies treaty.

 

[Layslow]

There is plenty of choice and low-cost carriers flooding the market in Australia. There is not a lack of competition in Australia, and certainly people wouldn't be travelling with Qantas because they have to. Am heading to the US next month with SQ - choice is there - you just need to look. Also, why should Qatar with the myriad of human rights abuses; staff who never made it home and anachronistic attitude towards women - be given a welcome mat in this country? Just because of the 'Q-Suite'? Nothing about the airline rings true, and I wish for once travellers adopted a moral compass when it comes to their choice of carrier. Right call by the government.

 

[dajop]

The simple fact is more seats, more competition, more choice is better for consumers.

Although there are limits. If that competition is deliberately running at a loss to drive down prices to make competitors unsustainable (who then exit the market) that competition may only be short lived. Not that it's necessarily the case here.

 

[levelnine]

There is plenty of choice and low-cost carriers flooding the market in Australia. There is not a lack of competition in Australia, and certainly people wouldn't be travelling with Qantas because they have to. Am heading to the US next month with SQ - choice is there - you just need to look. Also, why should Qatar with the myriad of human rights abuses; staff who never made it home and anachronistic attitude towards women - be given a welcome mat in this country? Just because of the 'Q-Suite'? Nothing about the airline rings true, and I wish for once travellers adopted a moral compass when it comes to their choice of carrier. Right call by the ALP.

Your post is contradictory in a myriad of ways.

Your post presumes there is ample competition. Why not, therefore, allow existing competitors to make the decision for themselves about how much capacity to fly into Australia? Unless there is evidence of anti-competitive conduct (eg capacity dumping), let the suppliers decide how to fly to this country just as you are free to decide which carrier you fly.

Qatar are already allow to fly into this country. So it's human rights record is irrelevant. If it were relevant, it would have already been banned. And if we start banning airlines from countries with human rights records that we do not like, where do we stop? The US ran Guantanamo for years. Are they gone? Singapore is a semi-authoritarian regime. Is it gone? Emirates, Etihad. Also gone? Sri Lanka is descending into authoritarianism. India has a horrific human rights record. China, Indonesia, ... That's one way to guarantee there will be no airlines flying into Australia and we are locked inside our country.

How about you decide where you spend your travel dollars and you let everyone else decide where to spend their travel dollars?