Qantas - Refurbs on 767 and 747

[markis10]

Not sure that I understand that. Based on the above aircraft operating costs are fuel and aircraft variable - a total of 7,200. 20% of that is 1,440 - compared to depreciation of 1,384. Admittedly some of the depreciation would not be aircraft related but there isn't a huge difference.

Pretty hard to look at it re depreciation with Qantas having $14B of assets of which many are not aircraft. Fuel and Opex account for half of total expenditure, how many new aircraft would be funded by that saving??

Its all hypothetical of course, but when we are in a record year for new aircraft orders, $1440M of savings would allow four 777 to be bought at list!

[TH="class: brand bgltgray"]Airplane Families[/TH]
[TH="class: brand bgltgray"]2012 $ in Millions Average[/TH]
[TH="class: brand"][/TH]
[TH="class: brand"][/TH]

[TH="class: brand bgltblue, colspan: 3, align: left"]737 Family[/TH]
[TH="class: brand"][/TH]

[TD="class: brand, align: center"] 737-700[/TD]
[TD="class: brand, align: center"]74.8[/TD]
[TD="class: brand"][/TD]
[TD="class: brand"][/TD]

[TD="class: brand, align: center"] 737-800[/TD]
[TD="class: brand, align: center"]89.1[/TD]
[TD="class: brand"][/TD]
[TD="class: brand"][/TD]

[TD="class: brand, align: center"] 737-900ER[/TD]
[TD="class: brand, align: center"]94.6[/TD]
[TD="class: brand"][/TD]
[TD="class: brand"][/TD]

[TD="class: brand, align: center"] 737 MAX 7[/TD]
[TD="class: brand, align: center"]82.0[/TD]
[TD="class: brand"][/TD]
[TD="class: brand"][/TD]

[TD="class: brand, align: center"] 737 MAX 8[/TD]
[TD="class: brand, align: center"]100.5[/TD]
[TD="class: brand"][/TD]
[TD="class: brand"][/TD]

[TD="class: brand, align: center"] 737 MAX 9[/TD]
[TD="class: brand, align: center"]107.3[/TD]
[TD="class: brand"][/TD]
[TD="class: brand"][/TD]

[TH="class: brand bgltblue, colspan: 3, align: left"]747 Family[/TH]
[TH="class: brand"][/TH]

[TD="class: brand, align: center"]747-8[/TD]
[TD="class: brand, align: center"]351.4[/TD]
[TD="class: brand"][/TD]
[TD="class: brand"][/TD]

[TD="class: brand, align: center"]747-8 Freighter[/TD]
[TD="class: brand, align: center"]352.0[/TD]
[TD="class: brand"][/TD]
[TD="class: brand"][/TD]

[TH="class: brand bgltblue, colspan: 3, align: left"]767 Family[/TH]
[TH="class: brand"][/TH]

[TD="class: brand, align: center"] 767-200ER[/TD]
[TD="class: brand, align: center"]160.2[/TD]
[TD="class: brand"][/TD]
[TD="class: brand"][/TD]

[TD="class: brand, align: center"] 767-300ER[/TD]
[TD="class: brand, align: center"]182.8[/TD]
[TD="class: brand"][/TD]
[TD="class: brand"][/TD]

[TD="class: brand, align: center"] 767-300 Freighter[/TD]
[TD="class: brand, align: center"]185.4[/TD]
[TD="class: brand"][/TD]
[TD="class: brand"][/TD]

[TD="class: brand, align: center"] 767-400ER[/TD]
[TD="class: brand, align: center"]200.8[/TD]
[TD="class: brand"][/TD]
[TD="class: brand"][/TD]

[TH="class: brand bgltblue, colspan: 3, align: left"]777 Family[/TH]
[TH="class: brand"][/TH]

[TD="class: brand, align: center"] 777-200ER[/TD]
[TD="class: brand, align: center"]258.8[/TD]
[TD="class: brand"][/TD]
[TD="class: brand"][/TD]

[TD="class: brand, align: center"]777-200LR[/TD]
[TD="class: brand, align: center"]291.2[/TD]
[TD="class: brand"][/TD]
[TD="class: brand"][/TD]

[TD="class: brand, align: center"]777-300ER[/TD]
[TD="class: brand, align: center"]315.0[/TD]
[TD="class: brand"][/TD]
[TD="class: brand"][/TD]

[TD="class: brand, align: center"]777 Freighter[/TD]
[TD="class: brand, align: center"]295.7[/TD]
[TD="class: brand"][/TD]
[TD="class: brand"][/TD]

[TH="class: brand bgltblue, colspan: 3, align: left"]787 Family[/TH]
[TH="class: brand"][/TH]

[TD="class: brand, align: center"]787-8[/TD]
[TD="class: brand, align: center"]206.8[/TD]
[TD="class: brand"][/TD]
[TD="class: brand"][/TD]

[TD="class: brand, align: center"]787-9[/TD]
[TD="class: brand, align: center"]243.6[/TD]
[TD="class: brand"][/TD]
[TD="class: brand"][/TD]

 

[ajw373]

Cannot see too much balance in the expenditure:

View attachment 11735



A 748i operates at around 20% less opex than a 744, that would easily cover the capex let alone the cost if leased I suspect.

If it were that simple all the airlines would be doing it. Simple fact is it isn't.

With your examples you don't seem to be taking into account the fact that a 15 year 747 would have little if no residual capex remaining, you seem to me to be basing it on list price new.

As for balance I wasn't talking about balacing the balance sheet I was saying it is a balance between having older a/c with higher opertaing costs v's newer with lower and clearly turning over your fleet every 5 years is going to cost more than keeping them 10-15-20 years, even with lower operating costs.

 

[markis10]

If it were that simple all the airlines would be doing it. Simple fact is it isn't. .

Have to disagree on that one, it seems every one is doing it when it comes to fleet renewal, even bankrupt airlines ! If newer aircraft didnt result in lower airfares then you have to ask the question why most of the price leaders seem to be around the 6 year mark:

TK 6.4 years
EK 6.4 years
EY 4.9 years
QR 5.3 years
TH 12 years
CN 6.1 years
GA 6.6 years
MH 10.6 years
JL 9.4 years
BR 10.6 years
CZ 6.7 years
MU 6.5 years
CX 10 years
NZ 9.7 years
CA 7.3 years
BA 13 years
DL 16.3 years
UA 13.4 years
AK 4.3 years
QF 10.6 years
FR 4.3 years
JQ 5 years



My examples were based on what Qantas has published, their actual expenditure, using list is common industry practice (unless you know actual discounts )

If you are getting a 20% saving on operating costs with new technology, surely that more than covers the costs and then some of acquiring the asset, increasing the balance sheet on the positive side and thus easing pressure on fares.

 

[ajw373]

Have to disagree on that one, it seems every one is doing it when it comes to fleet renewal, even bankrupt airlines ! If newer aircraft didnt result in lower airfares then you have to ask the question why most of the price leaders seem to be around the 6 year mark:

TK 6.4 years
EK 6.4 years
EY 4.9 years
QR 5.3 years
TH 12 years
CN 6.1 years
GA 6.6 years
MH 10.6 years
JL 9.4 years
BR 10.6 years
CZ 6.7 years
MU 6.5 years
CX 10 years
NZ 9.7 years
CA 7.3 years
BA 13 years
DL 16.3 years
UA 13.4 years
AK 4.3 years
QF 10.6 years
FR 4.3 years
JQ 5 years

Do you happen to notice that all the lower average fleet age airlines are either new or are ones that have recently gone on massive fleet expansions, whereas the established airlines all appear to be in the same ballpark (give or take 1 year) as Qantas? So don't think this list alone proves your point, though it does show what I am saying that there is a balance point, and that point appears to be around the 10-12 year mark average.

Also you seem to have left a few airlines off that fly to Aus.

SQ 6.7 years (though this airline has always had a policy of fast turn over)
TG 11.7 years

 

[NM]

One issue that QF faces compared with some operators based in other countries is the time period over which they can depreciate assets such as aircraft. In the past, QF has chosen to own most of its aircraft (not so much the case with more recent fleet additions). And the depreciate period for those purchases was generally a lot longer than required for many foreign airlines. This has contributed to QF's policy of retaining aircraft for long operational lifetimes (often 20+ years) while other airlines turn over their aircraft at much shorter terms (sometimes <6 years). Of course times are changing and QF is leasing many more aircraft and the long service life policy was also integrated with a strong local service/maintenance regime. So not sure how things will compare in the next 10-20 years with the policies and financial processes of the past.

 

[markis10]

Also you seem to have left a few airlines off that fly to Aus.

SQ 6.7 years (though this airline has always had a policy of fast turn over)
TG 11.7 years

I was covering a broad range of airlines, not just those who compete with QF locally. And while the Middle Eastern airlines are newish, I would not say GA or TK are, and no doubt the figures are a tad influenced by the many delays on new deliveries. Be interesting to compare age versus profitability in two years, then correlate it to price leading perceptions!

 

[ajw373]

I was covering a broad range of airlines, not just those who compete with QF locally. And while the Middle Eastern airlines are newish, I would not say GA or TK are, and no doubt the figures are a tad influenced by the many delays on new deliveries. Be interesting to compare age versus profitability in two years, then correlate it to price leading perceptions!

I did say the lower ones were generally "either new or are ones that have recently gone on massive fleet expansions". Both GA and TK fit the latter, even EK fits this description. In fact about the only airline that bucks my assumption is SQ, who as I said have always had a policy of high aircraft turn over and interestingly isn't in that good a shape finacially.

 

[MarcB]

Media release has just appeared regarding the refurbishment of international configured 767s to HNL.

Latest Qantas News

 

[markis10]

Are the iPads powered from the plane at all, as I am thinking they will either have a plane load of flat ones for the return trip and even some go on the ten hour trip over?

 

[under the radar]

Are the iPads powered from the plane at all, as I am thinking they will either have a plane load of flat ones for the return trip and even some go on the ten hour trip over?

i'm thinking they will be changed over with fresh/charged ones (that are being stored in HNL) as part of the prep for return flight..i think i've read somewhere they also keep spares onboard for inflight replacements..i'm guessing QF may monitor and adjust the number of spares used/needed over the first few SYD/HNL V.V. flights of iPad operation.. spares wont take up much space for storage on the aircraft :idea: :?:

 

[RickyT84]

Are the iPads powered from the plane at all, as I am thinking they will either have a plane load of flat ones for the return trip and even some go on the ten hour trip over?

From my experience on JQ (on a flight from MEL-BKK which is comparable in terms of duration for SYD-HNL on the outbound), the iPads comes with extra long-life batteries which should (in theory) be sufficient for the flight. I watched a couple of movies and TV shows plus music videos on that flight and the battery went from 100% to about 50%. So I guess these should be sufficient for both the inbound and outbound flights.

 

[TheInsider]

Refreshed B767s for Honolulu - Our refurbished B767s have started entering service on the
Sydney-Honolulu route. By the end of March all aircraft on that route will be
refreshed. The refurbishment includes leather seat covers in Business and a new
look and feel in Economy. Individual in-flight entertainment via QStreaming
(iPads) will be available on this route in mid-February 2013. The refreshed
aircraft will significantly enhance the Qantas International customer experience
to/from Hawaii.

 

[serfty]

I just realised that this [-]is[/-] might have been the end of the dreamtime seats ...

 

[mannej]

I just realised that this is the end of the dreamtime seats ...

Aren't they just refurbing the seats and not replacing them?

 

[serfty]

Aren't they just refurbing the seats and not replacing them?

I was looking at these which a secondary link from a link through the article. http://www.qantas.com.au/agents/dyn/qf/policies/B767Business.pdf

I saw millennium in the photos ...but I guess they may not be representative of these particular craft.

If they are indeed simply recovering the dreamtime, then good.

Looking beyond Feb 20th (from when all QF3/QF4 refurbished) I still see 1x2x2 (dreamtime) seat maps.

 

[markis10]

I was looking at these which a secondary link from a link through the article. http://www.qantas.com.au/agents/dyn/qf/policies/B767Business.pdf

I saw millennium in the photos ...but I guess they may not be representative of these particular craft.

If they are indeed simply recovering the dreamtime, then good.

Looking beyond Feb 20th (from when all QF3/QF4 refurbished) I still see 1x2x2 (dreamtime) seat maps.

Going from SIMONGRs experience, no seat change per se

The config remains the same 1-2-2 and there are leather seats - what I can't say is whether they are still Dreamtime seats under the new leather. I expect so.

The reason for the "" around "new" was that the old crew rest area is still there and looks a little dated.

 

[maninblack]

As a WP I actually like flying on the 767..

How is the experience for WP's better than for other passengers on these planes?

 

[maninblack]

Refreshed B767s for Honolulu - Our refurbished B767s have started entering service on the
Sydney-Honolulu route. By the end of March all aircraft on that route will be
refreshed. The refurbishment includes leather seat covers in Business and a new
look and feel in Economy. Individual in-flight entertainment via QStreaming
(iPads) will be available on this route in mid-February 2013. The refreshed
aircraft will significantly enhance the Qantas International customer experience
to/from Hawaii.

A message for Qantas from John McEnroe. John McEnroe - I Can't Believe This - YouTube

And an interesting news article. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4tVbc56Q0E

 

[nlagalle]

How is the experience for WP's better than for other passengers on these planes?

I never said it was for WP, just my preference.